Homeschooling & Raising Entrepreneurs w/ Nathan Barry

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Katie: Hello, and welcome to the “Valence Mama Podcast.” I’m Katie, from, and, my new line of personal care products, ending with e. This event is all about home schooling and what you can learn from it even if you are not interested in home schooling with your family. I’ve heard from a lot of people who are still considering this because things are more virtual anyway, and I want to have a conversation that can give some practical advice if your family is in this situation and on home schooling. Considering or if you are one of our listeners who are already home schools.

I’m here with Nathan Berry, a friend of mine and also the founder of a business called ConvertCut, which authorizes my email and newsletters that you all subscribe to. But Nathan has been a designer, a writer, a blogger, a lot of different things. He likes me as much as he did at home, and like me graduated from college, and now he’s running a ایک 100 million company. And in this episode, we want to do home schooling from a student perspective, we’re both being taught at home, and now as home-educated parents we hope that if you’re being treated like that If so, some very practical advice will be given. But even if you are not, we talk about ways you can develop some useful skills and mindfulness traits with your children, even if you teach them at home. Not interested and do so with more traditional school education.

So I think as we all learn to navigate this world, which has a lot of issues, whether going home or not, there’s a more virtual aspect to it, I hope this event works for you. Will provide something practical, and if you’re listening, make sure to check out the show’s notes on as well. I’ll be connected to a lot of the practical resources we’ve mentioned, and you can always post comments there or talk to me on Instagram where you can ask me parents with more specific questions about anything. Want to talk or write about And homeschooling in the future. But without further ado, let’s join Nathan Berry. Nathan, welcome. Thanks for coming here

Nathan: Yes, thank you for keeping me.

Katie: I’m really excited about the event. And I think it’s even longer than I thought before because so many families are now considering going to home school, or jumping into the world of home schooling. And we’re going to take a closer look at a lot of topics related to that, but for starters, for those of you who aren’t familiar with it, let me hear a little bit of your background and, in particular, your home. I would love to hear the background of sourcing.

Nathan: Yeah, well, right now, I run an email marketing company for creators called ConvertKit. And so we have 60 employees who are spread all over the world like 30,000 creators using the platform. And so my world is like design and tech and that’s all, you know, the beginning of the whole world. But my background is home schooling. I am the fourth of six children, we all grew up and went home. I grew up in the mountains outside of Boise, Idaho. So, you know, we had a few acres of land and it had a lot of support; like a normal area; it’s not really a subdivision because it was in the mountains, you know. But basically, we have a lot of land and space to roam and that’s all.

And we can go into all the details, but my mother drove us around the house, my father was involved, but not so much. And yes, I was a home school. I first went to Bayes State University for college; for that I started graphic design and then marketing. Released a few years later. And then, you know, software design just happened and there were some jobs. And then I’ve been running Convert Kit for seven years. And out of context, I’m 30, yes, born in 1990. However, this is a very high level story. I’m a big fan of home schooling. I recently wrote a post on it which is very interesting. So it’s a pleasure to be back in this world since I’ve been away from it for so long.

Katie: I like it. I’ll link to the post you’re talking about because that’s one of the reasons I thought I’d put you on the podcast. And we share some similarities. I’m a little older than you, not much. I was also sent home to school, albeit only to high school. My parents were very educated and wanted us to get scholarships. So it was kind of like; we went to public high school and we were expected to do that and get a scholarship. But I think; I have said many times that I think I have learned everything I needed through home schooling long before high school. And like you, I now run a company and give my parents and their education a lot of lessons that have made it even easier. In particular, what parts of home schooling do you feel are most conducive to success?

Nathan: Yes. Here are some different things. And, you know, everyone’s home schooling experience is different. So I always try to say, it was mine. And I think there are basic things that really work well and make it possible. But the first thing that made a big difference to me was, you know, as the class moves; the class always moves at a slower pace, or alas, at the slowest student’s pace. And, you know, with home schooling, you have your own class, right? My siblings are two or three years older and younger than me, like no one else in my grade, and the class runs at my pace.

And so that meant, you know, there really is no speed limit, I can move as fast as I want, as much as I’m encouraged. Some days, you know, it was a negative aspect that I really dragged and delayed and it all happened like other kids, you know, as usual. But then, I really remember when I was 11 or 12 years old and, you know, we grew up in the mountains and that’s how winter is coming, just so beautiful snow falling. Where you can practically see snow accumulating because it’s just these giant perfect avalanches.

And I’m sitting there, it’s half past eight in the morning, and I’m so crazy I have to do Saxon math. You know, and I like, “I want to be out.” And my mom just says, “You know, school doesn’t have to be on time. The sooner you get your work done, the sooner you can slide.” And I was right, like , I’m worried, you know, it was one of those things that I probably knew, but nobody told me that clearly before, and I was just like that, oh, well, here. There are 30 math problems and it’s less than necessary; you know, like, stay focused and do it. And, you know, I think an hour later, maybe an hour and a half later, I’m sliding. Was out of

So this was such an important lesson that there is no speed in it, you can walk at any speed. And I really play it going forward, all my friends were older than me, you know, church friends, youth groups and even neighborhood friends. And so I realized that they’re all going to college and I’m still stuck in high school. And I think I realized that when I was maybe 13 or 14, and they were all, you know, 16, like 15, 16, 17, that kind of thing. And so I thought, well, I don’t want that to happen.

So I went to my mom and said, “Well, high school is four years, or is it a fixed amount of work?” And with his reputation, he said, “No, that’s a certain amount of work.” Like, “Great, can you give me a to-do list form?” And since I had older siblings, you know, his high school curriculum was written as before because I already had three older siblings go through it. So she likes, “Well, you do it all with good grades, and yes, you can go to college.”

And so I just docked and I said, “Well, I don’t want to be left behind with all my friends moving forward.” And in the same way; like an example. Every year we go to Seattle with the boys, which is like an eight-and-a-half-hour drive to meet family. And I remember thinking, well, I’m always bored on these road trips, because, you know, pre-iPads. And when I’m bored doing algebra, why don’t I just connect the two? And that’s how I would do a month’s worth of algebra on a drive. And so I have, you know, my older siblings, they were in the car, and I could ask them for help with questions, and so I would just dive in and get it all done.

And as a result, I started going to Boys State when I was 15 years old. And, you know, I feel like I’ve caught up with all my old friends. And, you know, I’ve finally dropped out of college, and another claim to fame, I guess, was when I left college at the age of 17. So before most people managed to drop out of high school, but in the end the result was better. . But I think the biggest lesson was, like, there’s no limit to the speed, you’re in control, you can turn everything upside down.

Now, in many ordinary schools, I think, there is another thing; it is definitely not true across the board. But most of the time, teachers will do the opposite; alas, they will give the negative, but not the opposite. So, for example, if you do really well in your school, you can sit here in class for as long as everyone else has. If you do bad things, you are sent to the principal, you know, these are the results, well, you get more homework and everything.

And so when we think about autonomy in school, it often results in your inversion being really limited, and you realize that you are missing out. And so I think it was something that was great about my home school experience, you know, both the ups and downs were mine and it gave me the key to future success. Compiled

Katie: I like it. And I guess that’s probably going to be a direct crossover in entrepreneurship as well. Because I think about it; like Peter Thiel is famous for asking in a way how can you get your 10 year plan in 6 months? And talking about how there is no speed limit or no timeline. And even if you can’t complete your 10-year plan in 6 months, you’re probably ahead of anyone who expects it to take 10 years. And it’s a kind of idea to control the reverse and work towards freedom of time. Do you as a business person translate from a practical point of view in your life?

Nathan: Oh, yes, of course and one of my favorite conversations I had with Peter Thiel was at a conference where you and I were both present and where we ended up at a party at Peter’s house. And talked a lot about home schooling. And I think that’s where it is, you know, home schooling, entrepreneurship, everything, like, just puts you in the driver’s seat. And so it says, well, whatever outcome you want to make, it’s up to you now. And yes, there are still some obstacles, okay. As, in business, we have to follow the general principles of economics that you know, the basics, the supply and demand, and like all these things, have to work that way.

And you know that home schooling, I had home school experience and there are other communities that want to get more education, God willing, or you know, maybe pushing the boundaries of education further. And that was not my experience. But like, in general, it’s like, well, you still have to play in colleges and grades, just like within the scope of the system, and like we’ve still taken the standard test. But we always behave like that, oh, if you fall short of 95th or 99th in a standard exam, like, were you paying attention too? And so I think, well, it’s all about freedom, but then there are the barriers to broader society, and it’s true for both home schooling and entrepreneurship.

Katie: I agree. And we did standard testing. I think my parents like to get matriculation to make sure we can check all the boxes. And I think it was great because we had the mindset, it’s the kind of game we have to play but beat the game like that. And I approached SAT and ACT with the same mindset, like, it’s not that I don’t think this thing will help me in my life but it’s a game. So how can I beat the game? How can I study effectively for this particular exam and deal with only what I am going to win? And they both did really well.

And so now that I’ve taught my kids the same thing, I don’t care what your ACT or CAT scores are, but if you want to take them, let me know how the game works. To be defeated I think the other thing you liked about me was the autonomy aspect. Because I’ve seen it; and I think that’s an important thing we need to talk about. Even in the adult population, in the workplace and in general, I think of Dean Punk who talked about stimulus psychology. And he explains that the ideas of autonomy and mastery are in fact greater motivations than money, reward and fame in the workplace and in life.

And that’s how it may seem contradictory at first, but basically like the human psyche, like the wired for these things. And it’s not that they can’t thrive in the traditional school environment. But I think home schooling is uniquely designed to make the most of the situations you talked about. Also, time is of the essence for children and moving towards freedom of time. Do you think that when you start building companies, this mindset of autonomy and overcoming all the factors directly feels the same way?

Nathan: Yes, I think so too. You know, I was just used to that environment. You know, like, I think we’ve all been friends or heard stories, okay, like you’re leaving high school and going to college, okay? آپ ہمیشہ ایسے لوگوں کا سامنا کرتے ہیں جہاں آپ انہیں کسی حد تک گہری سرے سے جاتے ہوئے دیکھتے ہو ، ٹھیک ہے؟ چاہے وہ منشیات ہو یا پارٹی کرنا یا کوئی اور چیز۔ اور عام طور پر جب میں ڈوبتا ہوں … یا اس طرح کی طرح گہری کھدائی کرتا ہوں ، جیسے ، وہاں کیا ہوا؟ اکثر اوقات یہ ہوتا تھا کہ کسی کی زندگی واقعتا controlled قابو میں رہتی تھی ، اور ان میں زیادہ خودمختاری نہیں ہوتی تھی۔ اور اس کے بعد وہ اس ماحول میں آگئے جہاں آپ جانتے ہو کہ کالج کے ، اور ان کی مکمل خود مختاری تھی اور وہ اپنی پسند کا خود انتخاب کرسکتے تھے۔

اور جیسا کہ اس سے آزادی بہت زیادہ تھی ، وہ نہیں جانتے تھے کہ اچھ choicesے انتخاب کا انتخاب کس طرح کرنا ہے ، یا ان کے پاس یہ اپنی ذاتی قیمت یا ترجیح نہیں ہے۔ اور اس ل I میں سمجھتا ہوں کہ ہومسکولنگ لوگوں کو راستے میں خود مختاری دینے اور پھر یہ دیکھ کر کہ ہر بچہ اس کے ساتھ کیا کام کرتا ہے۔ اور اس سے آزادی اور پھر اس سے حاصل ہونے والی خودغرضی۔ اور پھر یہ اگلی چیز ، عام طور پر زیادہ آزادی ، زیادہ خودمختاری ، اور ایک زیادہ تحریک آمیز عمل کی طرف جاتا ہے۔ اور اس لئے میں سوچتا ہوں کہ یہ ایسی ہی چیز ہے جس میں ادیمیشپ ہے جہاں میں جانتا ہوں کہ ہر کوئی اپنی ملازمت چھوڑ چکا ہے ، “ٹھیک ہے ، میں اس کمپنی میں ہوں جو میں شروع کر رہا ہوں۔ میں بالکل اندر ہوں ، جیسے ، چلیں۔ “

اور پھر ان کی طرح کا یہ لمحہ ہے ، اوہ ، میں اس کی تعمیر کو بطور سائیڈ ہلچل بنا رہا تھا لیکن اب میں اپنا سارا وقت جو چاہوں کر کے گزار سکتا ہوں۔ اور میں نہیں جانتا کہ کام کیا کرنا ہے جیسے آزادی اپاہج ہو۔ اور اس لئے میں سوچتا ہوں کہ ہم تعلیم اور کمپنیوں اور جس طرح کے تمام فیصلوں میں زیادہ سے زیادہ خود مختاری دے سکتے ہیں ، لوگوں کو اتنی ہی کامیابی مل رہی ہے۔ ایک اقتباس ہے… میں سوچنے کی کوشش کر رہا ہوں کہ دوسرے دن میں بھی برین براؤن کو پڑھ رہا ہوں۔ اور اس لئے میں نہیں جانتا کہ وہ کس کا حوالہ دے رہی ہے ، لیکن وہ بنیادی طور پر بہت زیادہ وقتوں کے بارے میں بات کر رہی تھی جب ہم اپنے بچوں کے سامنے سڑک ہموار کرنے ، راہ ہموار کرنے کا خطرہ بناتے ہیں۔ اور اس طرح بنیادی طور پر اپنے بچے کے لئے سڑک کے لئے سڑک کی تیاری کرنا اس کے بجائے بچے کو سڑک کے لئے تیار کرنا۔

اور اس نے مجھے بہت سارے کاموں کے بارے میں سوچنے پر مجبور کیا کہ ہم جو کچھ کر رہے ہیں وہ بہت سنجیدہ اور بہت نسخہ دار ہے۔ جبکہ ، آپ جانتے ہو ، یقینا، ، میرے ہوم اسکولنگ کا تجربہ بہت پسند تھا ، دیکھو ، یہ دنیا کی طرح ہے ، یہاں ہے… بالکل وہی جو آپ کہہ رہے ہیں۔ یہ کھیل کس طرح کھیلنا ہے ، اور اس کی شناخت کب یہ واقعی اہمیت رکھتی ہے اور جب اس کی طرح ہوتی ہے ، یہ صرف ایک کھیل ہے۔ اور ، آپ جانتے ہو ، کھیل کھیلنا مزہ آتا ہے لہذا اس کے ساتھ اس طرح سلوک کریں۔ اور یہ ہے… مجھے وہ پسند ہے جو آپ معیاری ٹیسٹوں کے بارے میں کہہ رہے ہیں کیونکہ ہم نے بھی اسی طرح اس کے بارے میں سوچا۔

اور سچائی کے ساتھ ، میں اب بھی اسی طرح انٹرپرینیورشپ کے بارے میں سوچتا ہوں ، جیسے… اور اگر آپ اسی طرح انٹرپرینیورشپ کے بارے میں سوچتے ہیں تو ٹھیک ہے ، کیوں کہ آپ نے ایک بے بنیاد کامیابی والی کمپنی بنائی ہے۔ آپ کسی اور کو بنانے کے عمل میں ہیں جس کے بارے میں میرے خیال میں 10 گنا بڑا یا اس سے زیادہ ہونے والا ہے۔ اور اس ل I میں شوقین ہوں ، کیا آپ بھی اس کھیل کی پوری ذہنیت کو اپنی کمپنی میں لاتے ہیں؟

کیٹی: بہت زیادہ۔ مجھے یہ خیال پسند ہے کہ آپ نے صرف سڑک کے مقابلے میں بچ prepareے کے ل prepare بچے کو تیار کرنے کا ذکر کیا ہے۔ اور یہ بھی کچھ ہے… اب ہم اپنے بچوں کو بھی گھروں کی تعلیم دے رہے ہیں اور ہم نے سوچا کہ جب ہم نے آغاز کیا تو تعلیم کا اصل مقصد کیا ہے؟ ہم صرف نصاب یا کسی کتابی پروگرام کی پیروی نہیں کریں گے ، صرف اس وجہ سے کہ یہ ایک موجودہ پروگرام ہے۔ بچوں کو صرف بالغ افراد کی حیثیت سے جاننے کے لئے ، معاشرے کے صرف ممبروں کی حیثیت سے جاننے کی ضرورت نہیں ہے ، بلکہ معاشرے کے ایسے ممبران کا تعاون کرنا ہے جو چیزوں کو بہتر بنانے کے لئے کام کرتے ہیں۔ کیوں کہ واقعی ، آپ جانتے ہو ، پچھلے چند مہینوں میں یہ واضح ہوجائے گی کہ یقینا many بہت سی ایسی چیزیں ہیں جن کے بارے میں ہمارے بچوں کو اپنی زندگی بھر میں توجہ دینے اور ان کو بہتر بنانے کی ضرورت ہے۔

اور ہم نے اس نظریے کو ختم کیا جو ہماری کمپنیوں کے ساتھ ساتھ ایک عام سی مہارت سے بھی وابستہ ہے جو کسی کو موثر اور موثر بناتا ہے اور مستقبل کے راستے میں جس طرح ان کا سامنا ہوتا ہے اس کے لئے انھیں تیار کرتا ہے۔ کیونکہ یہ بھی ، مجھے لگتا ہے ، بالکل میرے لئے ، یہ آپ کے لئے بھی سچ ہوگا اور اسی طرح جب آپ گریڈ اسکول میں ہوتے تھے تو آپ کا موجودہ کیریئر شاید موجود نہیں تھا۔ لہذا اگر کسی نے آپ سے پوچھا تھا کہ آپ کیا بننا چاہتے ہیں ، جب آپ جوان تھے ، آپ فی الحال کیا کررہے ہیں اس کا جواب دینا بھی نہیں جان پائیں گے۔ اور شرح ٹیکنالوجی کی ترقی کے ساتھ ، ہمارے بچوں کو بھی اسی طرح کا سامنا کرنا پڑے گا۔

لہذا ہم نے اس نظریے کو ختم کردیا کہ ہمیں اپنے بچوں کو ایسی صلاحیتوں سے آراستہ کرنے کی ضرورت ہے جن کو کمپیوٹر ، اور ایسی مہارت سے آراستہ نہیں کیا جاسکتا ہے جس سے وہ اچھے انسان بنیں۔ تو تخلیقی صلاحیتوں ، تنقیدی سوچ ، نقطوں کو مربوط کرنے جیسی چیزیں ، جہاں دوسرے لوگ خانوں کے باہر سوچتے بھی بندیاں نہیں دیکھ پاتے ہیں۔ سوال کرنا اور اس بات کا پتہ لگانا کہ آیا واقعی میں داستان کے صرف ایک حصے کے مقابلہ میں معلومات کا ایک جائز ذریعہ ہے۔ اور پھر ہم اس پر کیسے عمل کرتے ہیں اور ان چیزوں کو سکھاتے ہیں جن کی انہیں ان لینس کے ذریعہ جانکاری کی ضرورت ہے جو محض بک ورک کے ذریعے ہوتی ہے۔

اور اسی طرح ہم نے اسکول میں 80/20 نقطہ نظر کو بھی یہ انداز میں لگایا کہ اگر میں واپس چلا گیا اور صرف ان حقائق کے بارے میں سوچا جو میں نے اپنی تعلیم میں سیکھا تھا ، تو میں ان میں سے شاید بہت ہی کم فیصد کو یاد کروں گا۔ اور اس طرح بچوں کو ان چیزوں کو بالغوں کی حیثیت سے برقرار رکھنے کی ضرورت ہوتی ہے جو وہ ختم ہوجاتے ہیں۔ اور اس طرح ، ان چیزوں کی طرح جو ہم نے اپنے بچوں کے ساتھ کیے ہیں اس طرح کی کاروباری روش کا باعث بنی ہے جو ہماری کمپنیوں میں بھی عبور ہے۔

اور آپ کی طرح ، ہمارے بچے اپنی روایتی کتابوں کا کام تقریبا the اس عمر تک ختم کردیتے ہیں کہ وہ عام طور پر ہائی اسکول کا آغاز کریں گے۔ اور اس موقع پر ، ہم نے ان کے ساتھ ایک کاروباری انکیوبیٹر شروع کیا ہے ، جہاں ہم ان کے ساتھ اپنا کاروبار شروع کرنے کے لئے کام کرتے ہیں۔ اور اس کا مقصد یہ ہے کہ وہ گاڑی چلانے سے پہلے ، یا اپنا فون حاصل کرنے سے پہلے ایک سال کے لئے منافع بخش کاروبار کریں ، جو ان کے ل pretty اب تک کافی محرک رہا ہے۔ اور اس طرح یہ لطف اندوز ہوتا ہے کہ اس طرح کے اوورپالپ کو دیکھ کر اور ان کے ذہنوں نے کاروباری پہلو میں شامل ہونا شروع کرنا ہے۔

ناتھن: ہاں ، اوہ ، یار ، میں اس سے محبت کرتا ہوں۔ میں نے کچھ عوامی پہلوؤں کی طرح دیکھا تھا ، آپ جانتے ہو کہ ، آپ اور سیٹھ نے فیس بک پر اس طرح کی باتیں کیا ہیں۔ مجھے یقین ہے ، آپ کے کسی بچے نے رنگ برنگی کتاب کی تھی ، کیا یہ ٹھیک ہے؟

کیٹی: ایک کتاب ، اصل میں۔

نیتھن: ایک باورچی کتاب ، ایک بچے کی باورچی کتاب ویسے بھی ، یہ دیکھ کر خوشی ہوئی ہے کہ یہ سامنے آتے ہیں ، لیکن مجھے یہ احساس نہیں ہوا کہ یہ ایک اصول تھا ، آپ جانتے ہو ، کار یا فون میں کاروبار ہے۔ اور میں اس سے محبت کرتا ہوں کیونکہ بہت سارے اسباق موجود ہیں جو واقعی ان کے ساتھ طویل مدتی کے ساتھ قائم رہیں گے۔ میں صرف ان سبھی چیزوں کے بارے میں سوچتا ہوں جو ایک منافع بخش کاروبار کے ل happen ہونا ہے اور یہ ان میں سے بہت سے مہارت ہے جس کے بارے میں آپ بات کر رہے ہیں۔ اور ، آپ جانتے ہو ، آپ نے یہ نہیں جانتے ہوئے کہا کہ آپ بڑے ہونے پر آپ کہاں ہونا چاہتے ہیں ، جیسے ، میں لینڈ سکیپ بننا چاہتا ہوں۔ اتنا واضح طور پر کہ میں نے سوچا کہ بالکل ایسا ہی ہے۔ لیکن میں خود اپنا زمین کی تزئین کا کاروبار چلانا چاہتا تھا لہذا کم از کم مجھے اس کا ایک حص sideہ صحیح ہو گیا۔

لیکن دلچسپ بات یہ ہے کہ ، ہاں ، حقیقت میں کیا مہارت اہمیت رکھتی ہے۔ جیسے ، میری ماں کا ادب ، انگریزی ، تحریر ، ان سب میں واقعتا strong ایک مضبوط پس منظر تھا۔ اور مجھے یاد ہے کہ اس نے مجھے ان سب مضامین میں مبتلا کردیا۔ اور میں بالکل ایسے ہی ہوں ، “ماں ، اس سے کوئی فرق نہیں پڑتا ہے جیسے میں کبھی مصنف نہیں بنوں گا ، میں چاہتا ہوں کہ زمین کی تزئین کی شکل اختیار کروں۔” اور وہ پسند کرتی ہیں ، “ٹھیک ہے ، یہ ٹھیک ہے اگر آپ کبھی مصنف یا اس طرح کی کوئی چیز نہیں بن پائیں گے ، لیکن اس طرح لکھنا ایک انتہائی اہم مہارت ہے ، آپ کو اسے ٹھیک کرنا پڑے گا۔”

اور اب مجھے جو احساس ہوا ہے ، وہ جو بات کر رہی تھی وہ ہے مواصلات سے متعلق معاملات اور واضح تحریر کی وجہ سے واضح سوچ ، یا واضح ہوجاتی ہے… آپ جانتے ہو ، جتنا آپ واضح لکھنے پر عمل کریں گے ، اتنا ہی واضح ہوجائے گا کہ آپ اپنی سوچ اور بات چیت کو مجموعی طور پر حاصل کرسکیں گے۔ . اور آپ جانتے ہو ، اور پھر کیا مضحکہ خیز بات یہ ہے کہ میں نے پھر کتابیں اور یہ سب کچھ لکھنا شروع کیا ، لہذا وہ بالکل ٹھیک تھی اور میں غلط تھا ، آپ جانتے ہیں۔ اور وہ مجھے یاد دلاتی ہے کہ 10 بار ، جیسے ، “یاد رکھنا جب آپ نے اصرار کیا کہ آپ کبھی بھی مصنف نہیں بنیں گے ، اور میں نے آپ کو ویسے بھی لکھنے پر کام کرنے پر مجبور کیا ، اور یاد رکھنا کہ میں کس طرح ٹھیک تھا۔” اور میں پسند کرتا ہوں ، “ہاں ، ماں ، آپ کا شکریہ۔”

لیکن اس نے بالکل وہی کام کیا جو آپ بیان کرنے کے ساتھ بیان کررہے ہیں ، جیسے ، ٹھیک ہے ، حقیقت میں کیا فرق پڑتا ہے؟ اور ہم نے ابھی بھی کیمسٹری کی تھی اور مجھے اب بھی یاد ہے ، آپ جانتے ہو ، اس سے بے ترتیب حقائق جانتے ہیں۔

لیکن ، آپ جانتے ہیں ، مجھے لگتا ہے کہ میرے والدین نے ان چیزوں کو دبانے میں واقعتا really اچھا کام کیا۔ اور ان کی کبھی ضرورت نہیں تھی کہ میں نے کوئی کاروبار شروع کیا یا اس طرح کی ، انھوں نے ہمیشہ اس کی حوصلہ افزائی کی۔ انہوں نے ہمیں الاؤنس نہیں دیا اور اسی طرح ہم نے پڑوسیوں کے گھروں کے آس پاس پالتو بیٹھنے کا کاروبار شروع کیا۔ میں نے لکڑی کا کاروبار شروع کیا اور فروخت کیا ، آپ جانتے ہو ، ہم پڑوسیوں کے لئے گھر گھر جا کر لکھے ہوئے منصوبوں کا خیال کرتے ہیں جب میں سوچتا ہوں جب میں 12 یا 13 سال کا تھا۔ اور اسی وجہ سے تھا… پیسہ کمانے کے لئے یہ چیزیں اور طریقے ہمیشہ موجود تھے اور یہ بہت زیادہ تھا تعلیم آن کھیل

کیٹی: مجھے یہ پسند ہے۔ ہم نے اپنے بچوں کے ساتھ بھی ایسا ہی طریقہ اختیار کیا ہے ، انہیں بھتہ نہیں ملتا ہے۔ ہمارا خیال ہمیشہ ہی رہتا تھا کہ ہمیں گھر کے آس پاس کام کرنے کا معاوضہ نہیں ملتا ہے ہم یہاں موجود ٹیم کی صرف ایک ٹیم ہیں۔ لیکن ہم ان کو مسائل کی تلاش اور ان کو حل کرنے کے لئے حوصلہ افزائی کرتے ہیں کیونکہ میرے نزدیک ، یہ زندگی کی قیمتی صلاحیت ہے اور بہت زیادہ کاروباری مہارت بھی ہے۔ لہذا اگر انہیں محسوس ہوتا ہے کہ کچھ ٹوٹا ہوا ہے اور اسے ٹھیک کر دیا گیا ہے ، تو ہم اس کی ادائیگی کریں گے لیکن انہیں پہل کرنی ہوگی۔ اور مجھے پیار ہے جو آپ کے لئے بھی ایسا ہی لگتا ہے۔ آپ نے پیسہ کمانے کے طریقے تلاش کیے۔

اور اسی طرح جیسے کاروبار میں ، ہم ان سے کہتے ہیں ، آپ مسائل کو حل کرکے اور لوگوں کی مدد کرکے ان ضروریات کو ڈھونڈ کر پیسہ کماتے ہیں اور ان کی تکمیل کا طریقہ معلوم کریں۔ میں جاننا چاہتا ہوں ، مجھے یہ سن کر خوشی ہو گی کہ آپ اب ان چیزوں کو کس طرح نافذ کررہے ہیں اور آپ اپنے بچوں کو پالنے اور تعلیم دینے کے طریقوں میں کیا بدلا ہے۔

ناتھن: لہذا اب مجھے تین بچے مل گئے ہیں ، وہ سب لڑکے ہیں۔ وہ آٹھ ، چھ ، اور پھر چھ مہینے کے ہیں۔ آئیے دیکھتے ہیں ، جن چیزوں کو میں نے یکساں رکھا ہے وہ بہت سارے مفت پلے ، غیر منظم ، غیر منظم ، آپ کو معلوم ہوگا ، بس اس میں بہت کچھ حاصل کرنے کی کوشش کر رہے ہیں۔ میں بہت ساری زمین پر پلا بڑھا ہوں۔ مجھے پہاڑوں میں رہنے کی اتنی ہی خواہش نہیں ہے ، آپ جانتے ہو ، شہر سے 45 منٹ کے فاصلے پر۔ لیکن ہم نے ساڑھے چار ایکڑ پر مشتمل ایک چھوٹا سا فارم رہائشی مکان خریدا جو گذشتہ دو سالوں سے ہم اپنے اردگرد بنا رہے ہیں اور یہ بات آپ کو معلوم ہے ، یہاں بائیس میں ہے ، تو یہ اچھی بات ہے۔

تو ہمیشہ منصوبے ہوتے ہیں۔ دراصل ، میرے بیٹے اگست ، جو چھ سال کے ہیں ، نے کل رات مجھے بتایا تھا کہ وہ اب اس سرزمین سے دور رہنے والا ہے۔ تو وہ خصوصی طور پر باہر ہی رہنے والا ہے ، کم از کم اس کے لئے… اس نے کہا… اس نے کیا کہا؟ چار دن اور تین رات۔ لہذا مجھے یقین نہیں ہے کہ اسے اس سطح کا درست مقام کہاں سے ملا ہے۔ لیکن ، آپ جانتے ہو ، وہ اس کے بارے میں بات کر رہا تھا کہ میں کس طرح سوچتا ہوں کہ وہ کھانے والی چیزوں کی فہرست میں ہے ، ٹھیک ہے ، کیونکہ ہمارے پاس ایک باغ اور سب کچھ ہے۔ وہ اس طرح ہے کہ “میں بلیو بیری اور اسٹرابیری اور چکن انڈے کھانے والا ہوں۔” اور کیا؟ وہ ایسا ہی تھا ، “مٹر اور ککڑی اور مرغی کے انڈے ، اور گاجر۔” اور وہ جاتا رہا لیکن چکن انڈے تین بار درج تھے۔ تو ظاہر ہے ، انڈے اس خوراک کا ایک اہم حصہ ہیں جس کی انہوں نے منصوبہ بندی کی ہے۔

لیکن ، آپ جانتے ہو ، وہ گذشتہ رات ٹرامپولائن پر سو گیا تھا اور اس نے میری اہلیہ ہلیری کو کیمپ کے چولہے پر ناشتہ بنانے میں مدد کرنے کے لئے اس کی مدد کی۔ اور ، آپ جانتے ہو ، ان میں سے ایک بہت کچھ انھیں کھیل دینے اور دریافت کرنے کی ایک بہت ہے اور یہ اچھی بات ہے کہ ہمارے پاس یہ سرزمین ہے جہاں وہ اپنی مرضی کے کام کرسکتے ہیں۔

اب تعلیم کی طرف… واقعتا I میں وہاں تفریق کرنے ہی والا تھا ، جیسے آپ جانتے ہو کہ وہ ایک طرف ہے اور پھر اب یہ تعلیم کی طرح ہے۔ لیکن میں واقعتا believe مانتا ہوں کہ یہ تعلیم ہے ، ٹھیک ہے۔ ان میں سے بہت ساری چیزیں جو… چاہے ہم تعمیر کر رہے ہوں یا کچھ بھی ، وہ ہمیں ہر وقت پروجیکٹس بناتے ہوئے دیکھتا ہے۔ جیسا کہ میرے پاس ایک چھوٹا سا ہاؤس آفس ہے جو میں نے تعمیر کیا ہے ، آپ جانتے ہو ، ایک تفریحی پروجیکٹ کے طور پر اور اس لئے وہ ہمیشہ اس میں مدد کرتا ہے اور ان چیزوں کو انجام دے رہا ہے۔ اور اس کے پاس کچھ پروجیکٹ ہے جو وہ بنا رہا ہے۔ میں واقعتا نہیں جانتا کہ اس کے لئے کیا ہے لیکن اس نے لیا ، جیسے اینٹوں کا ایک گچھا اور وہ ان کی پیمائش کر رہا تھا۔ وہ ایسا ہی ہے ، “نہیں ، والد ، مجھے 12 انچ نہیں چاہئے ، میں 14 انچ والا چاہتا ہوں۔” میں تھا ، “ٹھیک ہے۔” آپ جانتے ہیں ، میں کیوں نہیں سمجھتا کہ اس کی وجہ کیوں ہے لیکن وہ ان تمام نمبروں اور تمام چیزوں کے بارے میں صرف اسی طرح سے سیکھ رہا ہے۔

لہذا میرا اندازہ ہے کہ باضابطہ تعلیم کی طرف ، ہمارے پاس ایک فیملی ممبر ہے… میری بہن ، ایک ایسا اسکول چلاتی ہے جو آدھا نجی اسکول ہے ، آدھا ہوم اسکول ہے۔ اور اس طرح وہ اسکول میں ہفتے میں دو دن اور گھر میں ہفتے میں تین دن کرتے ہیں۔ تو مجھے لگتا ہے کہ ان سبھی گھریلو ایام میں ، جیسے کہ وہ جانتے ہیں ، ان میں سے بہت سارے اسباق حاصل ہوتے ہیں ، جیسے ، ارے ، آپ کا ہوم ورک اس وقت تک لیتا ہے جب تک کہ آپ اسے بنیادی طور پر چھوڑ دیں ، آپ جانتے ہو۔ اور ان کو وہ آزادی اور وہ سب کچھ حاصل ہے۔

دوسری چیزیں جو ہم رکھے ہوئے ہیں… آپ جانتے ہو ، یہ صرف ٹن پڑھنے کی ہے۔ ہم بچوں کی طرح پاگلوں کی طرح پڑھتے ہیں ، ہم سب ہمیشہ مذاق کرتے رہتے ہیں… مجھے دلچسپی ہے اگر یہ آپ کے لئے یکساں ہوتا۔ ہومچولرز کی طرح لعنت بھی الفاظ کا تلفظ کرنا نہیں جانتی تھی۔ اور اس کی وجہ یہ نہیں ہے کہ ہم ہوشیار نہیں تھے یا ، آپ جانتے ہو ، تقریری مسائل یا اس طرح کی کوئی چیز ہے۔ یہ صرف اتنا ہے کہ ہم نے پڑھا ، آپ جانتے ہو ، سیکڑوں یا ہزاروں الفاظ جن سے ہم نے کبھی سنا ہے۔ اور اسی طرح ، میرے پاس یہ ساری ذخیرہ الفاظ تھیں ، ایسا ہی ہے ، میں نے حقیقت میں کبھی بھی یہ لفظ بولا نہیں سنا ہے ، لیکن میں اسے جملے میں استعمال کرنے کی کوشش کرتا ہوں ، آپ جانتے ہو ، اصل میں نہیں جانتے کہ یہ کس طرح اعلان کیا گیا ہے۔ کیا آپ نے بہت سارے پڑھنے کے ساتھ اسی مسئلے کو نکالا ہے اور اس سے آپ کو متاثر ہوتا ہے کہ چیزوں کا تلفظ کس طرح کرنا ہے؟

کیٹی: بالکل۔ اور میں نے اسے ابھی تک نہیں بڑھایا ، ستم ظریفی یہ ہے کہ تفریح ​​کا حصہ ہے۔ لہذا میں نے یہ سنا ہے کہ ، آپ جانتے ہیں ، کبھی بھی ان لوگوں کے بارے میں انصاف نہ کریں جو الفاظ کی غلط تشریح کرتے ہیں کیونکہ اس کا مطلب ہے کہ وہ پڑھنا سیکھ چکے ہیں۔ لیکن صحت کی دنیا میں ، میں سائنسی علوم میں مستقل طور پر پڑتا ہوں اور تمام شرائط کو پڑھتا ہوں اور پھر میں اپنے آپ کو کسی پوڈ کاسٹ کی طرح پاؤں گا ، “اوہ ، نہیں ، مجھے یہ جاننا پڑے گا کہ یہ اونچی آواز میں کیسے کہنا ہے۔” اور میں اکثر نہیں کرتا ، اس کے علاوہ ، مجھے خوشی ہوتی ہے جیسے لوگوں ، جیسے سامعین مجھے اس قسم کی چیزوں پر بہت فضل دیتے ہیں ، لیکن بالکل وہی تجربہ۔

ناتھن: ہاں ، کیونکہ آپ صرف… میرا مطلب ہے ، آپ نے بہت کچھ پڑھا ہے۔ مجھے یاد ہے کہ ہم ہفتے میں ایک بار لائبریری جائیں گے اور مجھے یاد ہے کہ شاید میرے پاس کافی کتابیں نہیں ہیں ، کیا یہ اسٹیک ایک ہفتہ میں جاری رہے گا؟ آپ جانتے ہیں ، اور یہ ایک بہت بڑی پریشانی ہے۔ لہذا ہم اسے یقینی طور پر برقرار رکھے ہوئے ہیں۔ میں سوچتا ہوں کہ جس چیز کو ہم تبدیل کر رہے ہیں وہ ہے میں نے بڑے ہوتے ہوئے کھیل نہیں کھیلا۔ مجھے نہیں لگتا کہ کھیل کسی بھی طرح سے ، آپ کو معلوم ہے ، ایک ضرورت ہے۔ لیکن پچھلے چھ یا چھ سالوں کی طرح ، میں کھیلوں میں کھیل گیا ، اور ، خاص طور پر فٹ بال ، اور مجھے بالکل پسند آیا۔ اور اس وجہ سے یہ ہم کچھ کر رہے ہیں۔ My oldest son Oliver absolutely loves soccer and, you know, all sports. They both do, but Oliver especially.

And so we’re making sure there’s plenty of time for that because that’s something that I wish was different. I think I’d enjoy soccer even more now if I had played as a kid and had that extra time. So, that’s something that we’re changing. I’m not sure…Well, one thing that we are changing…and I think this is specific to our kids is that we want them to have other adults telling them what to do. And we wanna get them out of their comfort zone a little bit more. I was super shy as a kid, both of my boys who are old enough to know whether they’re shy, you know, the ones that are older than six months old are super shy. And so I think having them in school for that two days a week…and you could solve for that with, you know, a bunch of methods of, you know, like a weekly homeschool co-op sort of thing or like all kinds of ways. You know, just this hybrid school is what we’ve chosen.

But I think having other adults telling them what to do, you know, and providing some of that structure that time around other kids has been really good. And then just providing kind of that different environment has been helpful, especially because we’re kind of home bodies, and we spend a lot of time here on our farm. So that’s sort of how we’ve optimized for it and I think that it’s a good balance for us.

Katie: Oh, my gosh, several things I wanna touch on there. First, I’ll say, I’m also technically a college dropout and I’m actually very proud of that fact. It’s funny that now, when you’re like up for certain things, and they’re looking at you as an entrepreneur, they’re like, “Oh, did you drop out of college because that would be great?” Like it looks just so funny to me.

Nathan: Yes. It matches their narrative.

Katie: Yeah, I had the similar experience on the sports aspect as well. And that is something we now encourage with our kids more, as well. And thankfully, at a lot of places, if you’re considering homeschooling or if you are homeschooling, a lot of times kids can play sports, even with a school system if they want to. There’s a lot of programs now in a lot of states that make that possible. My parents also did not really encourage sports and movement because we were so focused on the academic side. And I’ve, like you, discovered that as an adult, and taken up pole vaulting and sprinting and weightlifting and track, and it’s been the most fun thing to explore.

And you mentioned with your kids, you know, letting them explore outside and move and I’m sure they’re technically doing all these things that are exercise, but for them, it’s play. And we know based on psychology, how important that is for their vestibular development and things that are gonna serve them as adults like risk tolerance and knowing their boundaries. Like there’s a lot of crossover in movement there.

But all that to say, I’m really curious also your take on higher education in college at this point. It might have been Tim Ferriss, I forget who said it that “You could get a college education for essentially the price of $5 in late fees at a local library,” or now it’s open-sourced from many universities online, including IT. I’m curious, your take on college in the current climate, and what you will encourage your kids to do when they start hitting that age?

Nathan: Yeah. So I don’t have the same perspective on college of like, you know, go to the library and learn everything. I think the reason is that there’s….it shortchanges what you’ve actually learned from college, you know. And so many people will just say like, “Oh, you know, I didn’t learn anything.” And that’s one person’s experience, for someone else, it might be totally transformational. For me, when I went to college, I was a shy, awkward 15-year-old. Now I did two things at once, one I did a theater program separately, that was through our church. And that really helped me, like, get out of my shell and, you know, be comfortable on stage and that played a huge role. So those extracurricular activities of like theater and music and sports, I think are so, so important.

But on college, you know, all those group projects that everybody complains about, and everything else, those were so valuable for me. I had so much book knowledge and not as much of like how to navigate certain…it’s like the adult world because there’s parts of it that I was totally, like, very, very confident. But it was sort of all these, I don’t know, like more negative social dynamics or something like that.

I basically learned a ton in college, of like, what life is like and how to navigate a lot of those things that I hadn’t learned. And I probably would have learned all of that in high school over time. I was just rushing forward. One funny anecdote I had another friend who…she was two years older than me and she went to college early, she went when she was 16. And she had given me this tip of like, never tell anyone how old you are because they’ll treat you differently. Like, obviously, you look super young, when you’re 15 or 16 going to college. But the moment they know how young you are, they’ll treat you differently.

And so I learned this from her and people would say, like, how old are you? I’m like, “Oh, well guess.” And they’d be like, “Ah, you know, like, 15 would be ridiculous. And you’re clearly not 18 or 19” because, you know, I looked super young. So you’d be like, 17 and I would just say, “Oh, good guess.” And then leave it at that and then, like, never actually tell them whether or not, you know, it was a good guess, it’s wrong, but still gotta respect the guess. And so they’re little things like that of navigating social situations or things that I learned that college was really good for.

So I would still recommend college, I think college is a good default, and I would recommend pursuing it if you don’t have something else that you wanna do. You know, at that 16, 17, 18 age, if you’re clear on what you want, whether it’s entrepreneurship or, you know, pursuing the arts or something else then…and if it works outside of college, I think that’s great and I would say go for it. There are definitely scenarios, and I have a couple of siblings, who I think that they really didn’t know what they wanted. And I think that college…and they didn’t end up going to college. And I think that college would have been helpful to get them out of their comfort zone and push them to figure out what it is that they wanted. So I think it’s a great default. And I think I’ll encourage it for my kids as a default. But if they know what they want, I’d tell them to just like shortcut it and pursue that instead.

Katie: I think I’ve kind of told mine if you have a reason to go to college or a specific pursuit, then, of course, I would support that. My hope as a mom…and I won’t push this on them. But my hope is that like you and like me, they’ll have kind of a business idea or something else they’re already pursuing by that point. Because I know so many people who went to college and got a degree and still kind of didn’t know what they wanted to do. Or I would guess maybe the same for you like ended up learning skills, not in college or post-college that ended up being the things that actually became a career. I know like I taught myself to code and went back for nutrition and all these things post-college, separate of college.

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I also love that you brought up the social aspect because that is definitely one of the biggest objections I hear when it comes to the idea of homeschooling. And I’ve personally known of homeschooling students who are just anecdotal examples to kind of go against that idea that homeschool students don’t get enough social interaction. But I’m curious if that’s something you are specifically addressing with your kids? I know you touched on it a little bit, and then how you’ll do that as they get older as well?

Nathan: Yeah, so there’s a couple of things. One, if you say, like, “Oh, I’m thinking about homeschooling.” People will be like, “Oh, I can’t believe you want your kids to be socially stunted,” and that’s just ridiculous. But there is another side of it, like, if we were to break down social interactions, we would need to start putting into the categories, right? Your ability maybe to navigate peer pressure, when, you know, like, your 15-year-old friends are saying like, hey, let’s go, I don’t know, and break into the store down the street, let’s go steal this thing or whatever, right? Like, all these things that a lot of teenagers are wanting to do or suggesting.

There’s how to…you know, as a little kid, how to talk to adults, like that’s something that comes up a lot. And like if we were to break down social skills into so many things, you know, even reading the room, like having that social awareness to realize, oh, when she says this, I don’t think that’s what she means, I think she means something else. Or like noticing when something happens or any of those things.

And I think that instead of lumping it all together and saying homeschoolers don’t have social skills, we should start to break that down. Because for me, what was the case is I was great at talking to adults. And actually, every homeschooler that I’ve ever met has been really good at being clear spoken, carrying a conversation, everything, because that’s what we do. We talk to people across all age ranges, because of our siblings, our families, all the scenarios.

I had this moment where I was in maybe Shopko, I think ShopKo was the store, and I was asking my mom, “Hey, do you know where the Legos are?” And she’s like, “I don’t but that gentleman works here you can go ask him.” And you know, I was super shy, so I went, okay, all right, let’s go ask him. Like “Sir do you know where the Legos are?” And I must have been nine or something at the time. And now having an eight-year-old, I’m like, this would be ridiculous to talk to him this way. But this guy like gets down like in this exaggerated way down on the ground and he’s like, “Oh, yeah, okay, you want some Legos? Yeah, Legos would be great. Oh, that’s amazing you want that? You know, the Legos are just down there then you go around the corner.”

And I was like, looking…You know, now I’d be like, what the hell is this guy doing? You know, I didn’t have those words at the time. But I go back to my mom and was like, “What is his deal?” And she was just like, “Yeah, some people feel the need to talk to kids that way.” And it was so stark because no one had ever talked to me that way in my life. No one had ever treated me differently because I was a kid. And so, in many ways, I had great social skills because I had had so many interactions with adults and had carried on so many conversations. I had learned so much from spending time with people who were older, younger, you know, every different age range, rather than just like my batch in the factory, that is education.

But then at the other side, you know, there are lots of social skills that I didn’t know how to navigate of, you know, like certain finer points of, I don’t know, more difficult interactions. Like peer pressure, some of those other things where you’re like, “Okay, what actually is going on here?” And so anyway, I guess I would say I always break it down. And then also, you know, if you think about…for everyone who went to high school. If you think about okay, maybe 500 kids in the high school, and break down the whole range that you have across the board there of everyone’s social skills. Like, you know, some people are going to be so outgoing and just like so confident and great communicators and everything else can navigate any situation.

And some people are going to be totally awkward and distant and everything else. And like, we would expect that in school. Well, guess what, you’re gonna have the same range across homeschooling, where people’s natural personalities and the environments they grew up in and their home life and everything else is going to come out in different ways. And you’re definitely going to get some homeschoolers who are shy, awkward, and don’t know how to navigate certain situations. And you’re gonna get some who are ridiculously outgoing and so confident on stage and whatever else.

So that’s what I would say homeschooling or a lack of social exposure is not a reason to not homeschool. It’s just something that you need to build in your system so that there’s plenty of opportunities to get your kids more and more opportunities and get them in…you know, talking to adults in front of people running their businesses, you know.

Like, we have friends who homeschooled and they’ve had two daughters who I think are seven and five. And they ran a lemonade stand, you know, just in the neighborhood. And, you know, people might say like, they’re not socialized enough, I don’t know. But like whenever they didn’t have enough business, they would run over to like somebody’s house and knock on the door and, like, tell them to come buy stuff from their lemonade stand. It was like, pretty sure those girls know how to navigate social situations I think they will do just fine as homeschoolers. So, it’s just about what you put into your system and what opportunities you give them. And what challenges you put them in front of.

Katie: Definitely with you on all of that, and yeah, those girls have a head start on marketing.

Nathan: Yes, exactly. If you can learn direct sales at seven years old, like, you’re set.

Katie: Exactly. Okay, so as a homeschool parent, I don’t know about you. I have gotten calls from literally dozens of friends over the last few months who are either considering or planning to make the jump to homeschooling with everything that’s going on right now. So I’d love to get, like, super practical and kind of go through any advice or thoughts you have to anyone considering homeschooling right now. I’ve seen estimates as many as one in five families are thinking about it this year. And I know a lot of parents kind of are freaking out with the idea like, “I don’t have a background in homeschooling.” “I’m not a teacher, can I make this work?” And “How am I gonna do this and it’s gonna take so much time.”

So as a springboard into the conversation I will say, as a homeschooling mom, not to compare it to a public school timetable. I think if you add up the time you take getting kids to and from school and getting them ready to and from school and homework after school. Most people I know who make this switch actually spend less time homeschooling than getting their kids ready for regular school. But I’m curious, any practical tips, advice, encouragement, etc, you would give to parents who are trying to make that leap?

Nathan: Yeah, well, the first thing I would say is, you know, this quarantine, this pandemic is not the same as homeschooling. It’s giving people a taste of what it could be like or open these questions or all those things, but it’s not the same, we shouldn’t pretend that it’s the same. And that’s the point that I tried to make in the article that I wrote and everything else of, like, okay, there’s your taste of it, it’s not the same.

So there’s a lot of stresses that, you know, we have now depending on where in the world you’re listening from, and the current state of, you know, the quarantine and everything that you’re not gonna have going on in homeschooling. You know, like, there will be more of a system, there’ll be other things.

So if you’re thinking about it, the things that I would say, exactly what you said, of like set time expectations. I think you could do a great job homeschooling your kids in two hours a day. And if I think if you said we will only spend two hours a day on school in a formal way, I think your kids might have like a much better education than if you were like okay, class goes from 8:00 to 3:00. And so okay, we need to spend, you know, like all this time. I think you’ll do way better in two hours versus seven hours. So that’d be the first thing.

The second thing I would say is, again, what you talked about earlier, throw out the system, and go to first principles and say, okay, what outcome are we trying to create? How do we want this child to show up in the world? How do we want them to be prepared for the road that they’re going to need to walk? Because there’s a lot of that that, yep, math, geometry, chemistry, language, all of those things, they’re going to be really important. But what’s going to be more important is helping them develop habits, motivation, you know, autonomy, all of these things, letting them know what they can optimize for.

So I would focus everything on that and then once you have those values, that outcome, and sort of that framework, then start to fit in the lessons of, like, okay, they’re in this grade, they should be learning these things and do it within that. And kind of the last thing is this I think my parents did so well is make the child the one in charge and the one responsible. Your job…you are not…So in my opinion in homeschooling done well, you are not the teacher. The child is both the student…well, no, I think this is the role of the student is they’re in charge.

They are saying okay, this is what I need to work towards. They’re responsible for getting their school done for, you know, writing their papers for everything else, and your role is to help them. So, for example, we do this a lot with my son Oliver, if he’s having a really rough time on school, or if he’s, you know, acting like an eight-year-old and being rude or whatever else. Then we’ll just say, “Hey, it seems like now is not a good time, why don’t you come get me when you’re ready to do school?” Now, that actually frustrates him because he knows that the next day when he’s actually at class, he has to stay in and do his homework if it’s not done. And so he has to miss recess and sit in with his teacher.

And so we make him responsible for that. And so instead of us trying to say like, “Come on Oliver, like, you gotta get this done.” And like this whole thing of us trying to make him do it. And so we just say, “Here’s the consequence, if you don’t do it, but you’re in charge.” And I think, that plays out in a lot of ways where then the kid takes responsibility for their education and they learn, okay, I get the upside, I get the downside, guess what, that’s how the rest of life works so let’s just match that.

And then I’m responsible for learning and so I, you know, come to my parents when I need help when something doesn’t make sense when I need anything. And that mindset, one, kids can get that way earlier than you think like a six-year-old can do fantastic with that. And then two, it makes the burden a lot less on a parent who’s homeschooling, because you don’t have this mindset of, like, the kid can’t be doing school unless I’m sitting there doing it with them, which is just a crazy idea.

Katie: Yeah, I fully agree. I think for us most days, school is accomplished in about two hours, at least of just kind of focused school time versus…I feel like to your point earlier. If you wanna make a distinction, just call it formal school time because they spend the rest of the time doing all these outdoor activities or like your son building, whatever it is that he’s building, or my son…

Nathan: Who knows, I still don’t know what he’s building.

Katie: My son’s project this week is he built a foundry in our backyard to melt down aluminum so that he could use it to make his Halloween costume so he can be the Mandalorian. But I feel like they’re learning and they’re learning like, at what temperature does aluminum melt, and all of these properties that would be chemistry or various aspects of science. So they’re still learning, they’re always learning but the actual school part takes so much less time.

And I get why if someone is thinking about making the jump, it seems daunting if you’re anticipating an eight hour school day and having to divide everything up into blocks and all of that. But truly, like, what you’ve explained, is when you put the ball in their court, and you let them take ownership for it, just like an adult life, they can move at their own pace. And often, I found, at least with my kids, they’re highly motivated to want to do that quickly. And then be able to go outside and play with their friends in our neighborhood, which then solves the social aspect.

So that’s my encouragement to any parents. On the edge of that right now is that there are so many resources that were not there, I’m sure, when our parents were figuring this out for us. Because we’re close enough to the same age. I’m guessing your parents probably had to pioneer a lot of this in your state, for the most part, would you say?

Nathan: Yeah, and my parents were pretty active in the homeschooling community. My mom even… you know, it’s funny now in the age of iPhone apps and everything. She made like a memory system that she actually sold later on a different like homeschooling conventions and stuff like that. It was this folder, it’s basically the size of a sheet of paper but opened up and had all these little slots for like little business card-sized whether you’re trying to learn language or anatomy and physiology. You know, like basically all these flashcards you’re going through. And had a system built-in of like, you’d move a card through the daily section and weekly and then monthly.

And it’s super funny because now like actually, years later, when I was learning to program iPhone apps, I rebuilt the whole thing as an iPhone app. But yeah, my mom was pioneering that kind of stuff and she started a curriculum…somewhat a curriculum but she started basically a distance writing program for homeschoolers where they could all have writing assignments and books assignments, all that, but then when they wrote short stories and essays and all that, she had a publication. And I think there was only like 25 families or something. But then they’d all get featured in this publication, they just went back to the same families, it was called the Fireside.

And like a bunch of the kids were involved in laying it out in Microsoft Publisher and just this whole thing. Like, looking back, my parents did such a great job of creating those opportunities, but that also like not making too big of a deal out of it. It was just relatively simple and straightforward. And they put us in charge is that so they would say things like, you know, “Hey, make sure that you write a short story to include in the Fireside this month,” or I think maybe it’s quarterly. So yeah, my parents pioneered a lot of that stuff and now there are so many great things.

My friend Ryan Delk just launched a new startup specifically for homeschoolers called Primer. I’m excited to see that develop. He’s actually got like… One of his engineers left SpaceX to come work at Primer. And so they’re like, “Oh, well, let’s just do the stuff on model rockets, let’s do…” You know, it’s like a SpaceX engineer who’s helping you do it. So there are just so many incredible opportunities right now, like, I’ve never been more excited for the homeschool community. And then just this broader cultural shift that’s happening, of whatever stigma homeschooling had 25 years ago, it just doesn’t have anymore.

Katie: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. I think we’re in a really amazing time for all of the problems right now there is a much wider acceptance of virtual learning and amazing tools that are developing out of the need for that right now. I’ll make sure to link to Primer in the show notes people can find it. And later this year, I’m also gonna be releasing sort of curriculum/ the entrepreneur incubator that I’ve talked about as a curriculum as well for other families to be able to use. But I’m so excited to see this more widespread acceptance of homeschooling and virtual schooling I think our kids can absolutely benefit from this.

And there are so many amazing resources already available. I will link to some of my favorites in the show notes. And if you think of it and have any favorites, I’d love to hear them and include them or if you wanna just shoot them over to me later, I can put them in the show notes as well.

Nathan: Sounds good. Yeah, I mean, the biggest thing is, I have to tell everyone as they’re looking through all of these, you know, contemplating the decision, one, know that you’re a hero for even considering it. Just for being that invest in your kids and I think it’s fantastic. But then, you know, like speaking as a listener and just thinking for you and I, we’re just case studies. It worked out really, really well for us, we’ve got successful businesses. Not to brag too much, but we’ve both got fantastic families, you know, and it’s just like, homeschooling is good.

And I think questioning all of these standard things and, you know, whether it’s education or business or all that if you can raise kids who think for themselves and question, then I don’t know, you’re gonna do really good things both for your family and for the world.

Katie: Yeah, I think that’s a very worthy goal, whether we homeschool, whether we don’t, I think all parents can unite on that front. And like you, I’m so grateful and excited for all of the business stuff and for being an entrepreneur but I think the greatest joy in my life is getting to see…like you said, we have pretty amazing families, getting to see these things with my kids and getting to help them learn. And to have them home and have more time with them and to teach them. So on that note, like as a mom, I would say I really encourage if you’re considering homeschooling it really is amazing to have that calm and to have them home and to be less rushed. There are so many benefits to that as well.

As a busy entrepreneur as well, you probably get this question relatively often, I know I do. Do you have any tips for getting it all done for balancing time, and family, and work, and all the things that end up on our plates?

Nathan: Yeah, it’s a good question. I’ll just tell you what I do and, you know, there’s nothing groundbreaking about this. But I do the Pomodoro method of just like setting a timer and focusing for 25 minutes, quitting everything. And I actually have this little dish in front of me that has two sides to it. And I’ve got 10 marbles. And every time I do a 25 minute focused session and check something off my to-do list then I just move a marble from one side to the other. So like a really good day would be like a seven marble day. But just kind of this nice, like visual reminder of like, right, I’m supposed to be focusing. So I actually have a little kitchen timer on my desk as well. And it’s a fun little reminder.

But like there’s nothing that special to productivity, it’s just really write down what’s the most important. And then set aside focus time. And, you know, like, reward yourself in small increments as you check that off. So I think kids can do well with that system, also. And we’ve done that a lot where we’re sitting down to read or something like that, “Okay, we’re gonna set a timer we’re all gonna read for…” This was when they’re younger, but for 15 minutes. And they’re like, “Okay,” and they would, like, be like, “Oh, is it time to done?” They could see the timer, and it’s still going. So just like those little examples. Deep work focus is really hard for kids, it’s hard for adults but the earlier you learn it, the better off you’ll be.

Katie: I love it, and I will…I’ve used that as well. I’ll put a link to the Pomodoro technique for anybody who’s not familiar with it. Also, is there a book or a number of books that have had a dramatic influence on your life, and if so, what are they and why?

Nathan: Okay, so I’m like turning around looking at my bookshelf behind me. “Anything You Want” by Derek Sivers, there are so many things in there. The book takes an hour to read. He built CD Baby, which was the first online retailer of independent music and sold it for like $20 million. An amazing story, great, great thinker and I love his perspective. Yeah, I think that would be the biggest one. And then an audiobook, I’m trying to remember the exact name. I’ll look it up it’s by Brené Brown. It’s basically on raising successful kids. But it’s like a three-hour listen on Audible. “The Gifts of Imperfect Parenting” that’s what it’s called. And it’s by Brené Brown and it was really good so I would definitely check out both of those.

Katie: Awesome, I will make sure those are linked in the show notes as well as a lot of the stuff that we have talked about and as well as ConvertKit, which is your company and the new one Primer so people can find those and continue learning. Where can people find you online if they wanna just stay in touch and learn from your work?

Nathan: Yeah, I’m pretty active on Twitter @Nathanbarry. Barry is spelled B-A-R-R-Y and then Every couple of weeks, I’ve got a blog post that I put out, I dive deep on entrepreneurship, design, marketing, and occasionally homeschooling. And then I’ve got a newsletter that you could sign up for there that I put out every week on Tuesdays.

Katie: Wonderful, okay, I’ll link all of those at So if you are driving or exercising while you’re listening, you can find everything we’ve talked about there. Nathan, I really appreciate the time. I know just how busy you are as a dad and an entrepreneur, and I’m grateful for everything you shared today.

Nathan: Yeah, thanks so much for having me on.

Katie: And thanks as always to you for listening and sharing your most valuable asset, your time with both of us. We’re so grateful that you did. And I hope that you will join me again on the next episode of “The Wellness Mama Podcast.”

If you’re enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to leave a rating or review on iTunes for me? Doing this helps more people to find the podcast, which means even more moms and families could benefit from the information. I really appreciate your time, and thanks as always for listening.

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