How to Raise an Adult & Break Through the Overparenting Trap

Baby: Welcome to my mom’s podcast.

This event has been brought to you by Jovow Red Light Therapy which I have been talking about for a really long time, and it is a regular part of my daily routine. I wanted to make sure to talk a little more about them today. You’ve heard me talk about red light therapy before because it’s part of my daily routine. I think this is a very effective way of health. And that’s what I always prefer. It was amazing for my skin and my thyroid, my energy level too. And I’ve written a little bit about the many health benefits of red light therapy on my blog. More and more of my research has shown that light is such an essential part of health. We think about nutrition and sleep, and many other aspects of health, but we often forget how important light is to our health. And red light therapy is an important type of light that we often do not need. Many of us face all kinds of artificial blue lights in our homes, but we don’t get spectacles like red lights and spectators coming out of the sun every day. And the way I treat it is to spend time outside every morning in natural sunlight, and using daily red light therapy is also a cheap way. Anyone who is obsessed with red light therapy may have heard of Joof because it is a major brand. They have advanced this technology, and this is the light I have kept in my home for many years. Jovov is just launching his next-generation device and adding to what was already an incredible red light therapy system. Their new devices are 25% lighter and more powerful, and with the same power and intensity that we can expect from them. But with their newer version, you can stand up to three times as much and still get the recommended dose. They’ve also upgraded the setup so it’s very fast and smooth, and easy to set up, and depends on what size you need. And they have a great new feature like Recovery Plus Mode, which uses Plus technology to give yourself an extra boost to recover from a hard day with a strenuous workout or family. Also, as a busy mom, I need all the sleep I can get. And I’ve found that using a red light device at night helps me wrap up during the day. But now they have something called Amb Ambient Mode to calm the low intensity light at night, which I mentioned to help your body and your natural circadian locks avoid the blue light at night. What to do. And adding to the cool red light springs can be really, really helpful. So, be sure to check it out. Interesting news, for a limited time, Joovf will attract you with a special discount on your first order, and you can get all the details on your qualifying order by visiting and using my code valenessmama.

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Katie: Hello, and welcome to the “Valence Mama Podcast.” I’m from and At the same time it is healthy, my new line of completely natural personal care products, including hair care, shampoo, conditioner, dry shampoo, toothpaste and hand cleaner.

This episode is one of my favorites I recorded with someone I really appreciate. I’m here with Julie Lethcott Hems, author of the New York Times best-selling book, How to Raise an Adult. This is one of my favorite books. That’s what TED is all about. And I think his message is incredibly, incredibly important. She is also the author of her award-winning poetry memoir, “Native American.” And her third book, “Your Turn: How to Become an Adult,” will be released in 2021. You can find all of these people included in the show’s notes at

But I’m excited to share my views on her today because she’s a mom and a former corporate lawyer, and also Stanford Dean, and she has a very unique perspective that we How are you raising children? In fact, it is a great danger to them in life. She is highly qualified to speak on the subject and holds a BA from Stanford, a JD from Harvard, and a written MFA from the California College of the Arts. And she serves on the board of the Foundation for College Education, World Citizen of the Year, Common Sense Media, and Lian.rog. And they volunteer at the hospital’s One One Die Eleven program. But I think his views on these aspects of parenting are so important, especially right now, as many of us would visit the new dynamics of parenting and school, and all the places that come with it. Are So, so much practical information in this event. Like I said, one of the favorites I’ve ever recorded. I’ve been a big fan of his work for a long time and now I’m excited to share it with you. Julie, welcome. Thank you very much for coming here.

Julie: Katie, thank you so much for keeping me. It is a pleasure.

Katie: I’ve been wanting to talk to you for so long. I’m a big fan of your book, How to Raise an Adult, and your TED Talk. I think your message is so important to parents, especially in today’s world and I think at the right time, while many parents are spending even more time with their children. When we go through such a changing world that we are just present. But to begin with, I’d like you to take a closer look at both of these points, your TED talk and your book, because if we want American parents to Maybe why a little change is needed. Great for our kids

Julie: Well, yes, thank you. Start by saying, “If I can do this, besides being a writer and a TED talk speaker, I’m a mother.” I am the mother of a 21-year-old son and a 19-year-old daughter and both are made aware of what I have to say, what I have learned more scientifically and what I have done as the dean of the college. I have experienced working with other people’s children, and I have observed my own dynamics, my own behavior in my own family. I, the “expert” and the parents who are embroiled in what I am saying, are not uncommon in seeking the views of both. But I think my behavior is really a humility about it, look what our parents have done, okay.

I am in “us” and I want every listener to know this. I’m not judging any of you. I’m not judging you. I’m not judging myself. I’m saying there’s a problem. How do I know? Because I’ve seen it in other people’s children and I’ve seen it happen in my own home. Now a broad overview of 25 to 30 years ago, believe it or not, it started a long time ago. Parents started more parents. We started arranging games through playdate. We started watching each of the kids play soccer and play the piano, and we started trying to make sure the environment wasn’t too bad for them. And we started micro-managing their homework, and we started to be a part of that childhood, like a fading cloud, like a fading gray cloud. For our children, they are troubled. My parents are always watching. My parents are always worried. My parents always have to know every minute aspect of my life. And it has helped spread anxiety among children.

We think of our mandala and handling and reminding of every little thing. We think this is helpful, but what we are learning from the study of psychology is that we are turning the fear of natural fears into anxiety. For example, when we say, “Oh, you are afraid of the dark. You live alone. You hate this kind of food or you just eat this kind of food. When we manage the environment. So that they are never in the dark and they are never alone and they eat only what they like. It tells their little developing brain, “Oh, this fear is so legitimate and for me to experience it. It can be so horrible that my parents are fixing my environment so I never have to deal with it. “We think it’s a loving helper. It’s doing the exact opposite. In fact, it’s our children. So this is an example of how with good intentions we try to love only these little ones so much and we do. We help as much as we can with their skills. It hurts development. It hurts their ability to create emotional strength and resilience. And, basically, it hurts the agency, which, in order to be mentally better, allows each of us to Must be Oh, hey, I can do my job in front of me, oh, hey, I want to meet my parents, you know my every move is micro-management. So this is the review

Katie: Yeah Al that sounds pretty crap to me, Looks like BT aint for me either. We want the best for our children. In most cases, no one is doing it in bad faith. What is the reason for this change? You said that about 25 years ago. What do you think was the motivation for this?

Julie: Well, actually in front of my book, I’ll explain in detail the five things I quickly ran away from. In fact, in the mid-’80s, just like 35 years ago, we were seeing these things start and then we started labeling it in the early ’90s. In 1983, in the mid-80s, let me be specific. The “alien threat” arose. This was not the case before the TV movie was made in 1983, which drove everyone out about alien abduction, which is really a horrible thing but so rare that it deprives our children of their freedom. Reduction is not guaranteed. But the idea was born in ’83.

Playdate was born in ’84. The idea that parents would play with other parents instead of preparing another plate date with their mother. That the parents would supervise the game, and manage it, and tell them what to play and if they are not interfering, they will intervene. All of that was under the control of the children, who taught them how to live with each other and how to live with their fellow human beings and discuss conflicts and decide what to do when they get angry. Is. You know that’s why we have so many young adults who can’t handle conflicts and need to be told what to do all the time, it comes back to playdate. We were very safe in cars and bicycles in the ’80s. In the mid-1980s, 50 of our states largely enforced a good thing, corset laws, motorcycle helmet laws, seat belt laws. Made us safe in cars and bicycles but made the whole house a bubble wrap mentality. That means the child doesn’t learn, oh, I shouldn’t do that again. You know, it’s a pain. We are all trying to prevent even the slightest harm so our children never benefit from this education if they hit themselves and sometimes crush themselves, then, it will be their life education ۔ Don’t repeat the experience they need.

We also became very obsessed with academics, a book was published called “A Nation at Risk”. That said, American teens need to be taught differently, better tested. We became more obsessed with teaching tests. And, so all of these things; oh, the ultimate thing is that we start showing up at the children’s activities and at the time of pulling their roots and throwing garbage, you know, and run other parents. I mean, my parents only went to sports, like your championship game. If you’re a genius, you’d be lucky if your parents showed up. You know, maybe they came to your championship and they didn’t come in every game and they’re sure there wasn’t a single practice as a hack. But like that appreciative culture, you’re amazing, you’ve been great for thousands of years in the 1980s. That is, we are going to appreciate your every move. We are going to give you a trophy for each group of sports you are a part of. And, you also know that overall, these five things contributed to what I’m describing as a gray cloud as a child, with such a good sense of gray. But more involved parents.

Katie: Yeah Al that sounds pretty crap to me, Looks like BT aint for me either, Looks like BT aint for me either, Looks like BT aint for me either, Looks like BT aint for me either, Looks like BT aint for me either, Looks like BT aint for me either. I’m in my 30s. But how much more serious is their whole life today than seeing their children’s friends versus their own children. And I know parents do this in the hope of giving our children a good start. Especially since the college landscape is more and more competitive. But what are some of the problems we are seeing with these teenagers, entering college as I think and I have also fallen into this category. Like these trained poles, I was very good at school and taking tests and jumping, but it is not a necessary life skill.

Julie: Well, I can’t have anyone better than that, Katie. You can’t understand trained poodles, but that’s how many parents are raising their children these days. I joke with parents that it’s like you’re a trainer, your kid is a dog and you’re going to be the best in terms of breed when you know a fancy dog ​​show. The point is, we are human beings, we are raising human beings. And, never being a dog, you know that if your dog always needs a leash and they get bitten, that’s awful. Where is my dog? How does my dog ​​know that when I am not pulling the strings I mean we are raising our children that way and it is psychologically devastating for them.

Adulthood is a wide open scene. There is no way. There is no right path, no right school, no right profession. You know, successful adults and that’s actually the subject of my book coming out in April, to find out who I am. What am I good at? What i like What is my identity? How can I be that person at work and in my personal space? You know, the person who gets it is a successful happy person and of course that’s what I want for my kids. So when you call it that, it’s a hard-made childhood, which I say is a checklisted childhood designed to attract the right results, but it happens as a prison, almost a Like a street jacket.

The boss, for example, refers to workplace employees in “How to Raise Adults” who say that children have been raised in this way since childhood in such a structured checklist. If a boss says, “Hey, we’re in trouble. I need you to consider it, come up with some solution. We’ll have a meeting in three days. They can’t do that. You know they have to take action.” ضرورت ہے۔ انہیں آپ کی ضرورت ہے کہ آپ کو یہ معلوم ہو کہ آپ جانتے ہو کہ یہ قدم A ہے ، اور یہ مرحلہ B ہے ، اور یہ سی سی ہے اگر ہم ڈی جا رہے ہیں۔ اور ، آپ جانتے ہیں کہ اس چیز کی جانچ کرنا اور ثابت کرنا کہ اس کی وجہ ہے۔ اور اس کا اثر لیکن آپ کو مجموعی طور پر معلوم ہے کہ ایسا لگتا ہے کہ اس طرح اٹھے ہوئے نوجوان کام کے مقام پر ظاہر ہو رہے ہیں کہ وہ عمدہ ملازم نہیں ہوسکتا ہے اس بات سے قطع نظر کہ ان کے ٹیسٹ اسکور کتنے اونچے ہوسکتے ہیں کیونکہ انہیں کبھی نہیں بنایا گیا یا اس کی اجازت نہیں دی گئی ہے۔ اپنے لئے سوچنا۔

کیٹی: ہاں ، یہ ایک اہم نکتہ ہے۔ میرے خیال میں وہ بنیادی تبدیلی تھی جس کی آپ نے بہت اچھی مثال دی ہے یا آپ اپنی کتاب میں گفتگو کرتے ہیں کہ ہم یہ سوچ کر رہے ہیں کہ ہم اپنے بچوں کو ایک بہتر آغاز دے رہے ہیں۔ لیکن ہم واقعتا. انھیں ان بہت سی چیزوں سے بچا رہے ہیں جن کی انہیں حقیقت میں کامیاب ہونے کی ضرورت ہے۔ اور مجھے لگتا ہے کہ میرے لئے اس احباب کا ایک حصہ میں نے کچھ اس وقت کیا جب میرے بچے واقعی کم تھے۔ اور پھر ، یقینی طور پر آپ کی کتاب کو پڑھنے کے بعد یہ واضح طور پر بیان کرنا تھا کہ میرے بچوں میں کامیابی کا نظارہ کیا ہے؟ میں ان کی مدد کے ل like کس طرح کی مدد کرنا چاہتا ہوں… میں کیا فائدہ چاہتا ہوں کہ وہ ان تک پہنچیں؟ میں انہیں کس حد تک بڑھاوا دینے میں کامیابی پر غور کرتا ہوں اور مجھے یہ احساس ہوا کہ علمی کارنامے کے بارے میں بہت کم تھا اور ان کے بارے میں خود کفیل ، مہربان ، بالغ انسان جس نے معاشرے کو معنی خیز انداز میں شراکت کیا ہے۔ اور ممکن ہے کہ ان میں سے ہر ایک کے ل different مختلف نظر آئیں لیکن اگر یہی مقصد ہے تو پھر پیچھے کی طرف کام کرنے کی طرح ہم ان کو ایسا کرنے کے ل best کس طرح بہتر طریقے سے ٹولز دیں گے؟ اور یہ ایسا نہیں ہوسکتا ہے کہ آپ اس فہرست فہرست میں ان تمام خانوں کو چیک کرنے کے ل making کہتے ہیں تاکہ وہ کالج کے کسی حد تک بالکل مناسب ہوسکیں۔ لیکن انہیں چیلنجوں کے ذریعے کام کرنے اور ان پر قابو پانے کی اجازت دینا۔ اور آپ مستند بمقابلہ آمرانہ کے بارے میں واقعتا great ایک بہت بڑا نکتہ بیان کرتے ہیں تاکہ جب والدین کی بات ہو تو کیا آپ ان میں فرق کرسکتے ہیں؟

جولی: ہاں۔ میں نوٹ لے رہا ہوں کیونکہ آپ بہت ساری عظیم باتیں کہہ رہے ہیں۔ صرف ایک سیکنڈ. اس طرح ہے جیسے اس وقت کوئی کیا ہو رہا ہے اس پر کوئی دھیان نہ دیں کیونکہ انٹرویو لینے والے نوٹ لیتے ہیں۔ ٹھیک ہے. آپ نے کچھ ایسی اہم باتیں کہی ہیں جن کے بارے میں میں یقینی بنانا چاہتا ہوں۔ لیکن ، ہاں ، میں مستند بمقابلہ آمرانہ کے بارے میں آپ کے سوال کا جواب دوں گا۔ اور یہ سب سے بہتر ہے ، واقعی ، یہ ایسی تصویر ہے جو آپ کو اپنے ذہن میں کھینچنا ہے۔ اور میری خواہش ہے کہ میں اپنی کتاب میں یہ کہنا آسانی سے تلاش کروں کہ ، “یہ میری کتاب میں سے کچھ بھی صفحہ پر ہے۔” لیکن ، یہاں ، میں نے ابھی اسے پایا۔ خوفناک. کیونکہ میری کتاب میں مشکل سے ہی کوئی تصویر موجود ہے لہذا میں اسے تلاش کرنے میں کامیاب رہا۔ اگر آپ کے پاس میری کتاب ہے ، “بالغوں کو کیسے بڑھایا جائے۔” یہ صفحہ 146 پر ہے۔ یہ بنیادی طور پر یہ کارٹیسیئن اسکیل ہے یا ہاں ، پیمانہ ہے۔ یہ ایک XY چارٹ کی طرح ہے جو آپ کو والدین کی مختلف اقسام کا پتہ چلتا ہے ، چار ہیں۔ جن میں سے تین سے ہمیں گریز کرنا چاہئے اور وہ ایک زبردست۔

لہذا پیمانہ بنیادی طور پر یہ ہے کہ ، آپ کے بچوں کی ضروریات کے لئے آپ کتنا جواب دہ ہیں ، یا آپ کوئی جواب نہیں دیتے؟ یہ Y-axis پر ایک قسم ہے جو اوپر اور نیچے جاتی ہے۔ اور پھر ، ایکس محور جو آپ کو ملتا ہے وہ یہ ہے کہ کیا آپ اپنے بچوں کی مانگ کم کر رہے ہیں یا اپنے بچوں سے زیادہ مطالبہ کررہے ہیں؟ اور اسی طرح ہم کہاں بننا چاہتے ہیں لہٰذا آمرانہ والدین بہت مطالبہ کر رہے ہیں اور اپنے بچوں کی ضروریات ، خواہشات ، اور احساسات وغیرہ سے قطعا responsive جواب دہ نہیں ہیں۔ یہ والدین کی طرح ہیں ، یہ میرا راستہ ہے یا شاہراہ ، میرے گھر میرے اصول ہیں۔ اگر آپ کو یہ پسند نہیں ہے تو نکل آؤ۔ ہوسکتا ہے کہ کچھ آپ کو زبانی یا جسمانی تشدد جانتے ہو یا ، آپ جانتے ہو ، بدسلوکی یا غصہ جو اس آمرانہ ذہنیت کے ساتھ آتا ہے۔ ہم یقینی طور پر ایسا نہیں کرنا چاہتے ہیں۔ ہم بھی اس کے برعکس کام نہیں کرنا چاہتے ، جو ہمارے بچوں کی ضروریات کے لئے انتہائی ذمہ دار ہے اور چاہتے ہیں ، ان کے بہترین دوست کی طرح کام کرنا اور ان کے سلوک کے بارے میں کبھی توقعات نہیں رکھنا چاہیں تو یہ بات بالکل مستند ہے ، یہ آمرانہ آئینہ دار ہے کیا اسے جائز یا لپیٹ میں کہا جاتا ہے ، ٹھیک ہے؟

وہ والدین جو بالکل مطالبہ نہیں کرتے اور بالکل بھی جوابدہ نہیں ، وہ غفلت برتنے والا والدین ہے جو نظرانداز کرتا ہے ، دستیاب بھی نہیں ہے۔ ہوسکتا ہے کہ ذہنی صحت کے چیلنج یا انتہائی غربت اور ماحول میں اس کی کمی کے آس پاس ان کے اپنے مسائل ہیں ، تاکہ وہ واقعی اس بات پر فوکس نہیں کرسکتے کہ بچے کو فراہم کرنے کی کیا ضرورت ہے۔ ہم میں سے کسی کو بھی اس زمرے میں آنے کی امید نہیں ہے۔ ہم جس زمرے میں رہنا چاہتے ہیں وہ مستند ہے۔ یہ اجازت دینے والے اور دل لگی والدین کی ذمہ داری قبول کرتا ہے اور اس میں آمرانہ والدین کا مطالبہ کرنے والا پہلو جوڑتا ہے۔ اس کی کام کی اخلاقیات ، ان کے کردار کے آس پاس ، ذمہ داریوں کو پورا کرنے کے ارد گرد ، آپ کے ارد گرد جو حدود قائم ہیں اس کی اعلی توقعات وابستہ ہیں۔ لیکن ، ان کی ضروریات اور ان کی خواہشات کے ل highly بھی انتہائی جوابدہ۔ آپ جانتے ہیں کہ یہ سب سے اچھا دوست نہیں ہے جو واقعی پرواہ نہیں کرتا ہے کہ وہ اپنا کام کرتے ہیں یا نہیں۔ اور ، یہ آپ کو آمرانہ نہیں بن رہا ہے آپ جانتے ہو کہ ڈرل سارجنٹ جو ان کی ضروریات کی پرواہ نہیں کرتا ہے۔ یہ وہ میٹھا مقام ہے جس کی مجھے بڑی توقعات وابستہ ہیں لیکن مجھے گہری اور گہری فکر ہے کہ آپ کس طرح کر رہے ہیں اور اس کے بارے میں جو آپ کی ضرورت ہے۔ ہمارا مقصد یہی ہے کہ ہم مستند پیرنٹنگ کا ارادہ رکھتے ہیں۔

کیٹی: ہاں ، یہ امتیازی سلوک میرے لئے اس سے انکار کرنے میں بہت مددگار تھا اور یہ وہ چیز ہے جس کی میں نے کوشش کی ہے۔ میرے والدین متعدد طریقوں سے ناقابل یقین تھے لیکن یقینی طور پر یہ تھا کہ شاید بہت زیادہ ماہرین تعلیم کی طرف بہت زیادہ دھکا پڑتا ہے اور مجھے یقینی طور پر بعض اوقات ایسا بھی لگتا تھا کہ شاید محبت اور منظوری ایک طرح کی تعلیمی کارکردگی سے جڑی ہوئی ہو۔ جس طرح میں نے کہا ، میرے خیال میں ہر والدین اس میں پوری طرح سے کوشش کرتے ہیں جس میں وہ کر سکتے ہیں لیکن میں واقعتا try اپنے بچوں کے ساتھ اس سے بچنے کی کوشش کرنا چاہتا تھا اور آپ نے مجھے اس کتاب میں اس طرح کا ٹھوس مشورہ دیا کہ ایسا کرنے کا طریقہ کیسے ہے۔ اور ایک بات میں اپنے بچوں کو ہر وقت کہتا ہوں ، “میں آپ کو غیر مشروط طور پر پیار کرتا ہوں۔ آپ کے پاس ایسا کچھ بھی نہیں ہے جو آپ کبھی نہیں کرسکتے ہیں جو اس سے دور ہوجائے گا یا اس میں اضافہ ہوجائے گا۔ لیکن میں یہ بھی مانتا ہوں ، لیکن اس کے باوجود مجھے آپ سے بہت زیادہ توقعات ہیں اور ہم اس کے بارے میں بہت بات کرتے ہیں۔ حد سے زیادہ حد بندی نہ کرنے کے ل You آپ واقعی ایک مضبوط مقدمہ بھی بناتے ہیں۔ تو کیا آپ ہم سے گزر سکتے ہیں کیوں کہ یہ ضروری ہے؟ اور جب ہم زیادتی کرتے ہیں تو بچے کی نفسیات کا کیا ہوتا ہے؟

جولی: ہاں۔ میں تم سے بہت کچھ سیکھ رہا ہوں۔ میں اس سے محبت کرتا ہوں جو آپ نے ابھی کہا ہے کہ اس کے ساتھ آپ نے اپنا چھٹا کیسے اٹھایا ہے ، “میں آپ کو غیر مشروط طور پر پیار کرتا ہوں۔ آپ کے پاس ایسا کچھ بھی نہیں ہے جو آپ کبھی نہیں کرسکتے ہیں جو اس سے دور ہوجائے گا یا اس میں اضافہ ہوجائے گا۔ میرے خیال میں کیٹی ، ٹکڑا “یا اس میں شامل کریں” ہے ، بہت سے والدین کو احساس نہیں ہے کہ انہیں بھی کہنے کی ضرورت ہے۔ میرا مطلب ہے کہ اس کا ثبوت ہے کہ یہ غیر مشروط ہے۔ میری محبت میری محبت ہے۔ یہ سورج کی طرح ہے۔ یہ کل آئے گا اور یہ کل رات کو غروب ہوجائے گا اور آپ اس پر اعتماد کرسکتے ہیں اور یہ سورج کی طرح تبدیل نہیں ہوتا ہے۔ آپ کو معلوم ہے کہ جب میں نے یہ کہا تھا تو میں سن رہا تھا۔ میرے خیال میں یہ خوبصورت ہے۔ آپ نہیں کرسکتے ، اس میں اضافہ کرنے کے لئے آپ کے پاس کچھ بھی نہیں تھا۔ میں آپ سے زیادہ پیار نہیں کرتا جب…. اور زیادتی کے بارے میں آپ کے سوال کا اصل میں یہ ایک خوبصورت طبقہ ہے۔

لہذا اس چیک لسٹ کردہ بچپن کے ایک حصے کے طور پر ، ان تبدیلیوں کے ایک حصے کے طور پر ، ہم بڑے پیمانے پر زیادہ والدین کے طور پر لیبل لگاتے ہیں ، ہم ، والدین نے فیصلہ کیا ہے کہ اچھی والدین کی مسلسل تعریف ہے۔ اس کی شروعات خود اعتمادی کی اس تحریک سے ہوئی جس کا میں نے پہلے ’’ 80 کی دہائی ، ربن اور ٹرافی اور سرٹیفیکیٹ میں اصل جیتنے کے بجائے ہر چھوٹی چھوٹی چیز کے لئے تعریف کی تھی۔ آس پاس کی آب و ہوا میں بچوں کے جیتنے یا ہارنے کی ضرورت نہیں ہے۔ ہم صرف اتنا کہتے ہیں کہ سب نے اچھا کھیل کھیلا۔ اس طرح جذبات پر آسانی محسوس ہوتی ہے۔ یہ اچھا لگتا ہے۔ یہ اچھا نہیں لگتا۔

سب سے پہلے ، بچے سوچتے ہیں کہ وہ حیرت انگیز تھے جب وہ واقعی معمولی یا محض تھے ، آپ میہ جانتے ہو۔ ہم یہ کیوں پڑھا رہے ہیں؟ ہم انہیں کام کے مقام پر بھیج دیتے ہیں اور وہ اپنے مالک سے توقع کرتے ہیں کہ ، “بہت اچھا کام ، دوست۔ تم کمال ہو.” باس کا یہ کہنا ممکن نہیں ہے کہ اگر وہ حیرت انگیز بھی ہوں تو ، 80٪ وقت چھوڑ دیں جب وہ بالکل ٹھیک تھے یا میہ ، ٹھیک ہے؟ لہذا ہم ان کی تشکیل کے لئے زندگی کی توقع کر رہے ہیں تاکہ ہر موڑ پر ان کی تعریف کی جائے ، جب واقعی حیرت زدہ ہے اور ہم نے یہ دیکھا تو آپ کے عمر کے لوگوں نے کام کی جگہ میں داخل ہونا شروع کیا اور وہ ایک منٹ انتظار کرنے کی طرح تھے ، میرے مالک کو پسند نہیں ہے۔ میں یا میرا باس مجھ پر دیوانہ ہے۔ کیوں؟ کیونکہ میرا باس مجھے بتا نہیں رہا ہے میں حیرت انگیز ہوں۔ تم اس سے کیوں امید کرتے ہو؟ کیونکہ میرے والدین نے ہمیشہ مجھے یہ بتایا۔ تو یہ ایک مثال ہے۔

ایک اور مثال ، جو ، زیادہ نفسیاتی ہے کیا یہ اس وقت بچے کو بتارہی ہے جب آپ کو مسلسل اس پر تبصرہ کرنے کی ضرورت ہوتی ہے کہ انہوں نے اپنے جوتوں کو کتنی اچھی طرح سے باندھ رکھا ہے یا انھوں نے تصویر کتنی اچھی طرح سے کھینچ دی ہے یا کسی کو اس نے کتنی اچھی طرح سے نشانہ نہیں بنایا تھا۔ یہ آپ کے بچے کو یاد دلاتا ہے کہ آپ ہمیشہ دیکھ رہے ہیں۔ اور ، جیسے جیسے ان کی عمر ، واقعی عجیب ہو جاتا ہے۔ میں نے ابھی ایک مضمون لکھا ہے جو اکتوبر میں شائع ہونے والی کتاب میں ہوگا۔ میرا مضمون اس پر ہے جس کو میں چپکے سے والدین کے عروج پر کہتے ہیں۔ اور یہ اس کے اثرات پر پڑتا ہے ، یہ آپ کے سوال کا تھوڑا سا تناسب ہے لیکن مجھے صرف یہ سوچ ختم کرنے دو۔ یہ GPS اور ٹریکنگ گھر اور والدین کے پورٹل میں موجود ویڈیو کیمرا پر ہے جہاں ہم اس لمحے میں گریڈ دیکھ سکتے ہیں۔

ہمارے خیال میں ہر لمحہ اپنے بچے کے بارے میں ہر چیز جاننا حیرت انگیز ہوتا ہے کیونکہ اس کے بعد ہم جانتے ہیں اور پھر ہم مداخلت کرسکتے ہیں ، ٹھیک کرسکتے ہیں ، اور یاد دلاتے ہیں ، اور نگل سکتے ہیں۔ اور ، حالیہ تکنالوجیوں کے بارے میں جو میں سمجھتا ہوں کہ کیا آپ جانتے ہیں ، وہ ٹکنالوجی کے ذریعہ فعال ہوگئے ہیں لیکن وہ اس مستحکم تعریف کا نکتہ بھی ہیں کیوں کہ مستقل تعریف ہمارے بچوں کے ساتھ ہمیشہ ساتھ رہتی ہے۔ آپ ان کی مستقل تعریف نہیں کر سکتے جب تک کہ آپ ان کے ساتھ مستقل طور پر نہ ہوں ، ٹھیک ہے؟ یہ ہے ، ہم صرف اس حد تک لوگوں کا مشاہدہ کرتے تھے اگر وہ قید میں تھے یا وہ نفسیاتی وارڈ میں ہوتے۔ لیکن ہم نے بچوں کی مستقل نگرانی کو معمول بنا رکھا ہے۔

اور میں جانتا ہوں کہ 10 یا 15 سالوں میں ، ہمارے پاس طولانی مطالعات ہوں گے جنہوں نے اس کو دیکھا ہے اور اس سے بچے کی ترقی پذیر نفسیات کو نقصان پہنچ سکتا ہے۔ ہم میں سے کوئی بھی ہر وقت دیکھنا یا ان کا انتظام نہیں کرنا چاہتا ہے۔ یہ ہم سے باہر رینگتا ہے۔ اس سے ہمیں بے اعتمادی محسوس ہوتی ہے اور یہاں تک کہ آپ جانتے ہیں کہ نگرانی کے والدین جیسے منفی دائرہ سے صرف مستحکم تعریفوں کے پیچھے جانا پڑتا ہے۔ نقطہ یہاں رک گیا ہے۔ زندگی حاصل کی. ایسی زندگی گزاریں جو آپ کے بچوں سے بالاتر ہو۔ آپ جانتے ہو کہ اپنے بچوں کو یہ ظاہر کریں کہ وہ آپ کی کائنات کا مرکز نہیں ہیں۔ اس سے وہ چھوٹی چھوٹی نارکسیسٹس میں بدل جاتی ہے۔ انہیں یہ جاننے کی ضرورت ہے کہ آپ جانتے ہیں کہ وہ آپ کی کائنات کا مرکز نہیں ہیں۔ آپ کی زندگی میں بچے پیدا ہونا لازمی ہے لیکن اس کے ساتھ ہی شراکت دار ہونا بھی شامل ہے ، شاید کام کرنا ، شاید ، رضاکارانہ کام ہوں جو آپ کے لئے اہم ہوں ، شوق ہوں ، دوست ہوں ، اپنے لئے وقت ہوں۔ ہمیں اپنے بچوں کو یہ مظاہرہ کرنا ہوگا کہ صحت مند بالغ زندگی میں بچے پیدا کرنا شامل ہوسکتے ہیں لیکن بچے توجہ کا مرکز نہیں بنتے ہیں۔ اس سے انہیں ایسا محسوس ہوتا ہے کہ وہ توجہ کا مرکز ہیں۔ آپ جانتے ہو ، یہ ایک پیچیدہ نقطہ ہے جس کی میں کوشش کر رہا ہوں لیکن میں اسے صرف یہیں چھوڑ دوں گا اور اگر یہ واضح نہیں ہے تو آپ پیروی کرسکتے ہیں۔

کیٹی: ہاں ، مجھے یہ نکتہ پسند ہے۔ میرے خیال میں اس میں بہت دباؤ ہے۔ اور میں سوچتا ہوں کہ اس کے دو حص partsے انہیں محسوس کرنے کے دباؤ سے آزاد کررہے ہیں جیسے انہیں ہمیشہ حیرت انگیز رہنا پڑتا ہے۔ کیونکہ جب آپ کسی بچے کو بتاتے ہیں کہ وہ حیرت انگیز ہیں اور وہ ہوشیار ہیں تو ، وہ دباؤ محسوس کرتے ہیں کہ حیرت انگیز اور ہوشیار رہیں یا جو بھی بات ہو آپ ان کی تعریف کر رہے ہیں۔ اور ، یہ بھی ، اگر وہ محسوس کرتے ہیں کہ وہ آپ کی دنیا کا مرکز ہیں ، تو یہ ایک نوجوان نفسیات کے لئے بہت زیادہ دباؤ ہے۔ اور ، لہذا ان چیزوں سے انھیں رہا کرنا انہیں بچپن کی آزادی فراہم کرتا ہے۔ مجھے ایک اعتراض معلوم ہے جب میں نے اس طرح کے زیادہ ساختی بچپن کے بارے میں لکھا ہے جو مجھے بہت کچھ ملتا ہے ، ہاں ، ٹھیک ہے ، لیکن اب یہ محفوظ نہیں ہے۔ یہ محفوظ نہیں ہے جیسا کہ ہم بچے تھے اور آج کی دنیا میں یہ بنیادی طور پر کم محفوظ ہے۔ اور میں جانتا ہوں کہ آپ نے کتاب میں اس کو مخاطب کیا ہے لیکن اس پر تھوڑی بہت چھوڑیئے۔ اور ، کیا فی الوقت بنیادی طور پر کم محفوظ بچوں کے بچے بننے کے لئے ہیں؟

جولی: یہ بنیادی طور پر اب زیادہ محفوظ ہے بچوں کے بچے بننے کے لئے اور یہ ہیلی کاپٹر کی والدین کی وجہ سے نہیں ہے۔ یہ اس ملک میں سبھی انسانوں کے لئے زیادہ محفوظ ہے۔ پُرتشدد جرائم ختم ہورہے ہیں۔ ہر طرح کے پُرتشدد جرم جس کا آپ بچوں کو پہنچنے والے نقصان سمیت تصور کرسکتے ہیں ، وہ ’70 کی دہائی کے بعد سے ہی کم ہے ، چونکہ اس سے پہلے ہیلی کاپٹر کی والدین ایک چیز بن گئے تھے۔ اس ملک میں ہمارے پاس کم لوگ مجرمانہ سلوک کرتے ہیں لہذا ہم ایف بی آئی کے اعدادوشمار کے مطابق معروضی ہیں ، زیادہ محفوظ ہیں لہذا یہ سوال پیدا ہوتا ہے کہ پھر ہم اتنی غلط معلومات کیوں پائے جاتے ہیں؟

اس کی ایک وجہ یہ ہے کہ ہمارے پاس 24/7 365 عالمی خبر چکر ہے ، جو ہمیں ہمارے ملک میں ، کرہ ارض پر جہاں کہیں بھی ہوسکتا ہے ، کسی بچے کے ساتھ ہونے والے خوفناک واقعے کے بارے میں بتاتا ہے۔ یہ ہوتا تھا کہ ہم ان چیزوں کے بارے میں نہیں سنا کرتے تھے جو آپ کو بہت کم معلوم ہوتے ہیں کیوں کہ ان کی موجودگی ہوتی ہے ، ہم ان کے بارے میں سنتے ہیں جب بھی وہ ہماری جیب میں انٹرنیٹ کی وجہ سے ہوتا ہے اور اس وجہ سے ہماری لڑائی یا اڑان کے ردعمل کو متحرک کردیا جاتا ہے۔ یہ ایسا ہی ہے جیسے کسی بچے کے لئے خطرہ ہے ، یہ میرے بچے کے ساتھ ہوسکتا ہے اور ہم محسوس کرتے ہیں کہ یہ محرکات ہیں۔ میں ، اوہ ، نہیں ، مجھے پریشانی کی ضرورت ہے۔ مجھے یہ یقینی بنانے کے لئے اپنے ماحول کی حفاظت کرنی ہوگی۔ اب میں اسے مختلف طرح سے فریم کرنے دیتا ہوں۔

کسی بچے کو کسی اجنبی کے اغوا کیے جانے سے کہیں زیادہ بجلی گرنے کا خدشہ ہوتا ہے۔ اجنبی کے ہاتھوں مرنے سے کہیں زیادہ وہ کار حادثے میں ہلاک ہوجاتے ہیں ، اس کے باوجود ہم انھیں ہر وقت کاروں میں رکھتے ہیں۔ جب طوفان آتے ہیں تو ہم باہر نہیں نکلتے اور کہتے ہیں ، “آپ باہر نہیں جاسکتے کیونکہ آپ کو آسمانی بجلی کی لپیٹ میں آسکتی ہے۔” اور اس طرح یہ خطرات کی مثالیں ہیں جو ہم اٹھتے ہیں ، چکی چلانا کرتے ہیں ، انھیں ہر وقت کاروں میں بٹھا دیتے ہیں ، انہیں ہر جگہ بند کردیتے ہیں جہاں واقعتا actually ہم ان کی زندگی کو زیادہ خطرہ میں ڈال رہے ہیں اس سے کہیں زیادہ اعداد و شمار کسی اجنبی کے ہاتھوں ہونے کا امکان رکھتے ہیں۔ . تو یہ صرف ہم غلط ہیں۔ یہ اب زیادہ محفوظ ہے اور اس کے باوجود ، ہم ان کو نازک مخلوق کی طرح سلوک کرکے ان کو کم محفوظ بنا رہے ہیں۔

دیکھو ، یہاں کی بڑی تصویر ہے اور مجھے صرف یہ کہنے دیں ، کیٹی۔ میرا مطلب ہے کہ یہ سخت ہے لیکن میں یہ کہوں گا۔ ہم ایک دن مر جائیں گے ، ٹھیک ہے ، اور ہم پستان ہیں۔ اس کا مطلب ہے کہ ہماری اولاد اس وقت تک ہمارے ساتھ ہی رہے جب تک کہ وہ مہارت نہ سیکھیں اور ہمیں اعتماد ہوسکے کہ ہم نے اپنے جینوں کو اگلی نسل میں منتقل کردیا ہے۔ اور ، وہ زندہ رہنے والے ہیں اور ان کی اپنی اولاد ہوگی۔ میرا مطلب ہے کہ یہ ہماری حیاتیاتی ضروری ہے۔ ٹھیک ہے ، ہم ماما کچھی نہیں ہیں جو آپ کے پاس جا رہے ہیں اور یہ جانتے ہیں کہ انڈے دیتے ہیں اور چلے جاتے ہیں اور انڈے ہیچ ہوجاتے ہیں اور سب خود ہی بن جاتے ہیں اور پرندوں کے ہاتھوں پکڑے جاتے ہیں۔ نہیں ، ہم انسان ہیں۔ Like elephants, we stay with our young until they have developed the maturity to be on their own. For humans, that has always been 18 years. Lately, it’s like 21 years, or 24, 29, whatever. At some point, we, parents must have confidence that if I was to die tomorrow, my kids are going to be all right because they have learned to care for themselves, their bodies, their environment, their decisions, their obligations, their relationships, okay? We have to parent for the long-term. Which is, we will be gone and we will have failed them and failed at parenting if that’s when our kid finally has to be able to make it through a day or a week or a month on their own.

Katie: Yeah, I think that’s such an important point and you drive that home so well and I love your TED Talk, too. And I feel like this is a hard thing as a parent. Because we are so attached, it is difficult to let them go through those challenges but it helps to reframe and realize just like an adult, like these are giving them the tools they need for later in life. And, I know as an adult and an entrepreneur I can now look at and see you know failure is actually can be a wonderful thing. Some of my best lessons in life came from failure. And, yet, it’s easy to fall in that idea of trying to protect our kids from failure when instead of letting them have an environment to fail safely when they’re young and learn from those lessons. Then, we have the opportunity to reframe those things for them and to make it a positive of great, what lesson did you learn from this? And to reframe their mental thought process when it comes to failure and it seems like an area this often exhibits when it comes to schoolwork or especially homework. And, I have a number of friends who spend hours and hours per day helping their kids with homework every single night and going over every answer and making sure everything is perfect. I’m curious to your thought about that because it seems like parents are much more involved in schoolwork and homework than they were when I was a kid. And, certainly, when my parents were kids. I think my grandmother would’ve laughed at the idea of helping my dad with his homework.

Julie: You’re absolutely right. And, this is where the generational divides just are super clear. So you’re in your 30s as you said. I’m 52, which makes me GenX. My own kids are 21 and 19, as I’ve said. And I have observed in the time my children have been alive and in schooling, this encroachment of parents into homework that just astounds me for I think three main reasons. Number one, it is completely…when I say parents involvement, I mean parents doing some portion of the homework, okay? Correcting things, making sure it’s perfect is kind of a derivative issue here. But let’s go one step further and admit that in many communities, parents are staying up all night with the glue gun because they’re going to do the project. They are editing the essay themself, not giving feedback, which, is appropriate. Inappropriately crossing a line and rewriting. They are cleaning up the math to make it accurate. Sometimes outright doing the homework themselves, okay?

And that is, A, unethical. B, it means the teacher has no idea what the students are capable of because parental involvement is all up in the work. And, C, it harms our kids’ psyche because it’s basically us saying, “Hey, kid, you’re actually not capable of succeeding in the fourth grade without my tremendous involvement.” Can you imagine? My goodness, it’s another example of how our, you know, good intentions have gone completely awry. Our kid’s mind learns my parents don’t have faith in me. They don’t think I’ve got it. They don’t trust me. They also feel, my future is so important, this piece of homework matters so much to my future that my parent has to drop everything in order to make sure it’s perfect. That’s placing a huge heaping load of anxiety on them. It’s just backwards and wrong and we must stop but how do you stop when you know everyone else is doing it? And this is where we really need schools to step up and blow the whistle and say, “Parents, behind the line. Behind the line.” Or, “Stay in your own lane.” This is an area ripe for reform at the level of schools enforcing inappropriate parental involvement in homework.

Katie: I agree. And I think maybe even especially uniquely right now with all the changes with virtual schooling and also with it seems like the college landscape’s changing a little bit that we might start to see some of those changes. But you bring up a great point. And so for parents listening who are resonating with what you’re saying and want to make sure that they are giving their kids a great foundation to actually be successful in life and not over-parent. Let’s turn around and talk about the positive for a minute. How can we create a good atmosphere that we’re not over-parenting and it’s not over-structured and we’re not overpraising. What are some of those tenants of a good nurturing atmosphere for our kids to get to have a less structured childhood?

Julie: Well, I think the philosophy, first, is we, in our minds, and heart, and spirit as parents, have to say, “My child is not my pet dog or my project that I work on or my trophy that is the proof of my worth.” And, that’s work we have to do within our own selves. And if we have trouble with that work and believe me, I get it. I am in that work myself. That’s what a therapist can help us with, right, unpacking why does my ego so badly need for my kid to get that opportunity or get an A on that thing, or get this grade or score, or get into this college. What’s going on for me such that I feel judged by my kids’ outcomes? Getting right with ourselves will help us be, meaning working on our own stuff will help us show up in our kids’ lives as the healthy confident adults they need us to be. That’s number one.

Number two, your beautiful point about what do you say to your kid? You say, “I love you unconditionally. There’s nothing you can do to take that love away nor to add to it.” That’s a kind of message you want your kids to be hearing on a regular basis, as a matter of family values. Next, you want to be teaching your kids skills, okay? I have this four-step method for teaching any kid, any skill. And, actually, Katie, the Atlantic Magazine did a cute little cartoon depiction of what I’m about to tell you with me as the voiceover and I’m going to send that to you for the show notes because I think it’s so adorable and it makes it so clear, visually. It’s like a picture is worth a thousand words so I will get that to you. But let me try to describe it.

We’re supposed to teach them everything from cross the street to use the stove, to remember to put your stuff in your backpack, and remember to take your backpack to school. And, to your earlier point of failure being a great teacher. The only way kids learn is by trying and fumbling it or failing outright and then trying again. That’s how humans learn, period. Very few of us are perfect at anything right out of the bat. And none of us are perfect at everything right off the bat, okay? So a good parent is invested in teaching children to do for themselves and here’s the four steps. I’m going to use teaching your kid to cross the street as my illustration example. Step one…I’m going to say the four steps. Then, I’m going to breakdown what they look like.

Step one is you do the task for them. Step two is you do it with them. Step three is you watch them do it. Step four is you don’t have to be there. They can do it independently. So let’s look at crossing the street. Step one, the child is an infant or toddler up to say, maybe three years of age. You’re carrying them or you know, yeah, you’re carrying them let say. Let’s say they’re infant or toddler. You’re carrying them as you cross the street, okay? They’re literally doing nothing. All they have to do is be held, okay? That’s step one. Step two, it’s as if they’re still in utero, okay? You are literally carrying them.

Step two…sorry. You do it for them. You do it with them. So step two means they’re old enough to hold your hand. You’re going to say, “Hey, buddy, we’re going to learn to cross the street today. We’re going to start today. It’s going to take a lot of practice but let’s start.” You’re narrating with your teaching voice. “Okay, so here is where we stand. And, here is how we look left, and right, and left.” And, see, how slowly I’m speaking. And in real life, you’d probably do it even more slowly but it’s excruciatingly slow. The point is you are teaching your child. So don’t lead a life that’s so busy that you can’t pause to slow it down and teach your kid how to cross the street, okay? You do step two enough times that you can let go of their hand and move to step three, which is terrifying.

Don’t move to step three if your kid is still at that age where they’re darting into traffic. This is now a kid who is not going to be leaving your side. And you say, “Hey, buddy, now we’re going to do the next level of learning to cross the street. I’m not going to hold your hand and you’re going to be the one making the decisions but I’m just here to listen just in case.” And your kid says, “Okay, daddy. Okay, mommy. I look left, and right, and left.” And you say, “Slow it down, buddy. Slow it down little one,” right? You’re teaching, you’re teaching. The kid slows down. Looks left, and right, and left. He says, “Okay, I’m ready.” And steps out onto the street. You see the garbage truck. You know sometimes cars are hiding behind garbage trucks. You put your protective hand on their shoulder. Step three, you’re still there just in case. This is a just in case. You say, “Hey, bud, look, there’s a garbage truck. Sometimes, sure enough, there’s a car hiding behind that one. We’ve got to start over and get back on this curb. Left, right, left,” you’re teaching. You do step three enough times, you can move to step four. Which is, your child can cross the street while you are somewhere completely different from them. You can see that it takes effort, it takes intentionality but your goal always is you know your mindset should always be what skill can my kid develop this week, or this semester, or this year, depending on the size and scope of it, okay? That’s what we’re supposed to be doing.

Katie: Yeah, I love that. That’s so tangible and gives them like you said, the skills and knowing that they have the foundational skills and knowledge they need to actually accomplish this and hopefully take some of that fear out of it for parents. But also, as you said, being willing to confront the fact that a lot of times, this is our fear that’s leading these behaviors, not actually reality or what is necessarily best for the kids.

This episode is brought to you by Joovv Red Light Therapy that I have talked about for a really long time, and that is a regular part of my daily routine. I wanted to make sure to talk a little bit more about them today. You’ve heard me talk about red light therapy before because it is part of my daily routine. I feel like this is an extremely effective health modality. And it’s something that I make a priority all of the time. It’s been wonderful for my skin and my thyroid, also my energy levels. And I’ve written on my blog quite a bit about the many health benefits of red light therapy. I found more and more in the research that light is such an essential part of health. We think about nutrition and sleep, and a lot of the other aspects of health, but we often forget just how drastically important light is to our health. And red light therapy is one of the important types of light that we often don’t get enough of. Many of us are exposed to all kinds of artificial blue lights in our homes, but we don’t get enough of spectrums like red light and like all of the spectrums that come from the sun every day. And the way that I remedy this is totally inexpensive way of spending time outside every morning in the natural sunlight, and also using red light therapy daily. Anyone who’s dabbled in red light therapy has probably heard of Joovv because they are the leading brand. They have pioneered this technology, and it’s the light that I’ve had in my home for many years. Joovv is just now launching their next generation of devices and they made upgrades to what was already incredible red light therapy systems. Their new devices are sleeker, up to 25% lighter, and with all the same power and intensity that we’ve come to expect from them. But with their new intensified version, you can stand as much as three times further away and still get the recommended dose. They’ve also upgraded the setup so it’s very quick and easy to mount, and set up, and can fit in just about any space depending on what size you need. And they have a cool new feature like recovery plus mode, which uses pulsing technology to give yourself an extra boost to recover from a tough workout or a tough day with the family. Also, as a busy mom, I need all the sleep I can get. And I find that using a red light device at night helps to wind me down from the day. But now they have something called Ambient Mode for calming lower intensity light at night, which I mentioned avoiding blue light at night to help your body and your natural circadian rhythms. And adding in soothing spectrums of red light can also be really, really helpful. So, definitely check it out. Exciting news, for a limited time, Joovv is going to hook you up with an exclusive discount on your first order, and you can find out all the details by going to and using my code Wellnessmama on your qualifying order.

This episode is brought to you by Alitura. You’ve probably heard me talk about that. This is a skincare company I love, and it’s founded by a dear friend of mine, Andy, who created these incredible products when he was in a horrible accident that left him with scars on his face. And this sent him into an incredible research phase to figure out ways that he could hopefully heal those scars and not have them with him for life. And he’s developed some incredible products that have allowed him to do just that. One of my favorites is their face mask. And if you’ve seen me on Instagram with clay all over my face and hair, this is likely the one that I’m using. It’s a simple mask that does incredible things for the skin and contains dozens of really, really beneficial ingredients. I notice a big difference in my skin tone when I use it regularly. They also have something called the Gold Serum, which I find especially nourishing for my skin without being too oily. And I love to use that, especially before we go outside or if I’m gonna be in front of the red light. I just find it’s really, really beneficial for my skin. I love all of their products because they use completely natural ingredients, and not just natural but incredibly beneficial ingredients. Andy goes above and beyond to make sure that everything that is contained in these formulas are so beneficial for the skin. And his skin is certainly a testament to how well they work. And I’ve gotten incredible feedback from many of you who have tried these products and loved them as well. They’re much less expensive than spa variations of skincare products and I found that the quality is so, so much better. And I don’t worry at all because I know they’re so natural. I would love for you to check out their products and find out all about the different formulas they have by going to And they’ve generously offered a discount of 20% with the code WELLNESSMAMA, all capital, all one word.

And another thing you touch on that I think is really important to be delved into is kind of the idea of the self-esteem paradox. Because I think that maybe is also a driver with the overpraising as we want to give our kids a strong self-esteem because we think that relates to them doing well in life and feeling confident. And I love, I think the idea that you mention in the book of they have to actually work for their dreams. They can’t just believe in their dreams. They have to actually be willing to work for it, too. But can you touch on the self-esteem part and what actually does give our kids not just self-esteem but the confidence and the skills to accomplish these things.

Julie: So self-esteem and self-efficacy are similar terms in the field of psychology. And, both, get to this the knowing that we need to have inside of us that we can achieve things. Agency is a related concept. And what a kid needs is, it also relates to what motivates them, intrinsic motivation is something we want them to have rather than be just motivated by our praise, or our scorn, or our money. So all of these things pivot around our kid having connection, meaningful connection to people who love them, healthy connection. And then, autonomy, which sounds paradoxical, like how could I ensure that everything goes well for them if I let them be autonomous you know?

The point is that if you step back and allow your kid to step forward into their lives, that’s how they’re going to ultimately have that sense of, yes, I can do things. Yes, I am capable. So it’s this dance we have to do of healthy emotional connection. And then, giving them space. We have to walk away when they do their homework. We have to say, “It’s homework time. Let me know if you have any questions. If you need my help you know, I’m in the next room.” You might have to manufacture something for yourself to do to ween yourself off of the need to sit there with them, okay? They have to learn to care about their homework, they have to learn to do it. They have to learn to remember to put it in their backpack. You know, you might not lay all of that on a kindergartner right off the bat. But by fourth grade, if you are still like, “Have you done…” You know like sitting there with them, that’s really an overreach.

Certainly seventh grade. We have parents walking into seventh grade, eighth grade classrooms in the pre-pandemic days to sort of situate their child. And, outside of a child having a significant learning challenge or mental health challenge or physical need health wise, there’s no business an adult parent has walking up into the seventh grade classroom and, you know, just making sure everything is right with your child. You’re just infringing upon their ability to kind of handle things for themself and that’s what they need in order to feel that self-esteem. Remember, every time you remind, every time you handle it for them, you’re telling them, “Hey, kid. I don’t think you can. I’m desperately afraid that you’ll mess this up if I’m not here or if I’m not reminding you.” That’s what your well-intentioned messages are actually saying to your child’s mind. I have an example about this but I want to pause and just see if there’s time for that. Let me know.

Katie: Absolutely. That was a perfect explanation but, yeah, go ahead.

Julie: So I got a phone call from a mom sometime ago. Who said, “Julie, you know I’m a fan of your book. I’m a fan of your TED Talk,” just like you’ve said today, Katie, which is awesome. And, she said, “I finally got it and here’s how. I have two sons. One, my eldest is 16 and he’s my biological son. Then, my younger son is two years younger and he’s my adopted son. And, I love them both fiercely. You know the adoption or non-adoption doesn’t make a difference I thought,” she said.

“Here’s what happened. My older son, my biological son was having a lot of difficulties. Ended up having to go to a therapeutic boarding school and we have family therapy with him once a week.” Or twice a week or something like that. I forget the details. But she said, “Julie, just this week on our family therapy call my biological son said to me with his therapist there, “Mom, every time you remind me of something it makes me feel that you think I can’t ever do it.” And he said, “And I think that makes me feel like I can’t do it. And, maybe becomes me not being able to do it also. Sometimes it makes me want to defy you and say, fine. You felt like you had to remind me you know, the heck with you. I’m not going to do it because you feel the need to remind me,” okay?”

Then she goes, “Julie, here’s the brilliant thing I realize I’m so sad hearing my son say this. I get it. I can totally envision every single moment of every day when I’m reminding him. And I realized I only do this with my older son. And I’ve come to realize that it’s because he’s my biological kid and his genes are half mine that I feel that his achievements and outcome and effort is a reflection of me. Whereas with my adopted son, whom I love no less, who I love no differently. I don’t feel responsible for what he become in the world because he is genetically not mine.” This was brilliant I thought.

She came to appreciate, she has a healthier relationship with her adopted son. Her adopted son does not have these emotional issues and traumas that her biological son has. And, she’s pretty sure she has a clear sense of why. Now, many of us don’t have like the child who has our genes and the child who is adopted and doesn’t share our genes. Many of us can’t conceive of it that way so let me offer this if this resonates with you.

Think about how you treat your nieces and nephews, or the children of your best friends. Let’s say you go over to that person’s house. Their teenager comes home or their elementary school or middle school or whatever, comes home in a huff because something went wrong at school. Say it’s a high schooler who’s just like, well, I just blew my chemistry test, you know. Or, it’s a little one who says, “I left my backpack at school,” you know. If you’re not their parent, all you’re going to do is offer a loving response. You’re going to say, “Oh, buddy, I’m so sorry. That must not feel very good.” And then, you’re either going to change the subject or you’re going to say, you know, “I have some thoughts about that. Let me know if you need help.” But then you say, “What is good about today? Or, tell me about that guitar you started to play, or, how’s soccer going?” You turn to something different. You know, you empathize and move on.

If it’s our own child, we’re like, “What do you mean you failed the chemistry test?” And we feel the need to call the chemistry teacher, email the teacher, interrogate the teacher, interrogate our kid. Like we are so worried about chemistry that we act like it’s our very future that’s on the line. And, that creates this emotional intertwinededness that prevents our kids from actually to actually showing up in their own life and being their own person who cares about their own outcomes. Okay, the situation I’ve described with the “adopted” son and the “niece, or nephew, or best friend’s kid,” that is the healthier parental response. That’s the psychological distance, a healthy psychological distance we need to have between us and our children, in order for them to develop self-esteem, self-efficacy, agency, intrinsic motivation, all of that. We have to stop acting as if their lives and outcomes are basically our own.

Katie: That’s such an important point. And it’s probably in many ways so much easier said than done but that is amazing, how that illustrates that. If you don’t mind a somewhat personal question. I’d actually love to hear, you mentioned your kids are both grown. I would love to hear how they’ve, basically, what they think of all this? And the relationship you guys have now if you don’t mind sharing some kind of broad details?

Julie: Sure, sure. I write a lot about my kids in my book, always with their approval. I speak about them when I do my keynote for, “How to Raise an Adult.” And, I’ll just say this. My 21-year-old would be comfortable with my saying he is working through a lot of stuff right now. He has got an anxiety about just living life that is pretty hardcore. And, he’s taking a break from college to focus on that. And, we are happy that he’s doing that. And, we’re trying to support him appropriately in that work.

By which I mean this was a kid who always had a little bit of anxiety and ADD but was always you know the way that I would characterize it, so smart, so high-achieving, so capable that those things never really seemed to be in the way. And, we didn’t spend enough time learning about those things. We never put those things as kind of the forefront of what mattered. It was always like, yeah, yeah, yeah, there are those things but he’s really smart and he can achieve so let’s go. So here’s the best way I can frame it for you.

When my husband and I realized at the end of our kid’s sophomore year of college that he was really struggling. We began…struggling with his ADD and anxiety that had just become the dominant factors in his life. We, I’m embarrassed to say this but I’ll admit because let’s just be truthful about what this can be like for us. We had not purchased so much as one book on ADD or one book on anxiety since his diagnosis in the fourth grade. And, now, here he was like 19-20, 20-years-old. And, so we bought a bunch of books and shared them, and flagged them up, and made notes, and we were like learning so much.

He comes home from this year of college, which was pretty defeating. You know because when things start to go poorly, then you get into this downward spiral. And, I know that from being a dean, working with other people’s kids. I know that from struggling myself, in college occasionally at the beginning. And, so my son comes home from college and he sees this stack of books accidentally. Like, we had had them in my husband’s office. And, my son went in there to like get something out of the printer that was in his dad’s office. So my son comes out to me and he says, “Mom, I saw the books on dad’s desk.”

Oh, Katie, my heart just leapt into my mouth, just thinking, oh my goodness you know, what have we done? He’s going to feel pathologized, angry, you know I don’t know. And he put his hand on my shoulder and looked me in the eye and a smile came to his face. And he said, “Thank you for taking an interest in knowing who I am.” And that was so emotional. Because that told me in one sentence that he was feeling pretty unseen and unsupported in the challenges that are very much in his way. Things we were brushing off as, yeah, yeah, you’ll be fine. You’re so smart. We love you. You know, just we had not been supporting our child according to his needs.

And, so we are trying to be the parents of this, now, 21-year-old man, young adult as we now say in today’s parlance. You know when I was growing up, 21, nobody would’ve said is a young adult. Very much a young adult we would say today. We’re trying to step up where we need to, step back where we need to, do the work we need to do to support this kid on his growth trajectory and it’s hard and we’re in it with him, and it’s hard. And I love this kid to death as I love both.

My second one is in college. She’s back East in college. I live in California. We live in California. She’s 3,000 miles away. She’s living off-campus in a pandemic environment. It was her way to have some control over her living. I didn’t want her university to say, once again, “Oh, you’ve got to move out because of the virus.” So I’m watching this kid adult from afar. She is negotiating conversations with landlords, and the DMV, and renter’s insurance, and buying herself food. And, figuring out how long food lasts in the refrigerator without spoiling. And, she’s frustrated sometimes, and crying sometimes, and proud of herself you know probably less often than she should be. I’m sitting here, going, “Wow, kid, look at you. You are doing it. It’s hard but you are doing it. And, every time you get back up and try it again and figure it out, you get stronger and more capable.”

Katie: I love that. And, it’s the perfect example of the points you’ve made about not overpraising and I’ve also heard said you know like if you’re going to praise, praise the effort. Praise the hard work, praise the tangible thing that can increase, versus the innate quality. And, that was a perfect example of that. And, I appreciate you sharing so vulnerably about your own kids. Because I think that illustrates, too, what a great relationship you have with them, now, as adults, which is certainly one of the top goals for me. And I love that you’re willing to share that so thank you for that. I can’t believe how fast our time has flown by because you are so incredibly easy to talk to. A question I love to ask selfishly at the end of interviews is, if there’s a book or a number of books that have had a dramatic impact on your life and if so, what they are and why?

Julie: Well, it’s funny. There are plenty of books and they’re not necessarily in the realm of parenting so I’m just going to say to anyone who might need this. My favorite book is “Good Woman,” by Lucille Clifton. She’s an African-American woman, a poet, she died within the last 10 years. I can’t remember exactly when. But reading her poetry in my 30s, made me feel if she’s possible, if these words are possible, then, maybe I am possible. And, that may seem like what? What is Julie saying? She’s on here as this expert, she’s written books and has a TED Talk.

Yes, and I’m also an African-American woman and bi-racial, and I was taught by many people in this country that I should loath myself because of my race, because of my skin color. And, even though I was outwardly successful as a corporate lawyer and then a university dean, I really was just trying to perform well-enough so that I would never be called the N-word again, and that happened to me in my all-white high school on my 17th birthday, which I never told anyone because I was so ashamed of. So this book of poetry, “Good Woman,” by Lucille Clifton, was so raw and revealing about femaleness and womanness, and motherhood, and mothering, and birthing, and bodies, and all of that, and blackness. And, for some reason it just spoke to me and just pulled me out of wherever I was hiding if that makes any sense. And I know it’s not sort of relevant to this podcast but I just, that is the honest, most honest answer to your question. In terms of parenting authors I love, there are so many and, you know, off the top of my head who comes to mind? Jessica Lahey, “The Gift of Failure,” Madeline Levine, “The Price of Privilege.” Her work in the “The Price of Privilege,” really led me to my work for, “How to Raise an Adult.” Because she’s a psychologist who was seeing all of this over-parenting showing up in the form of mentally unwell kids in her practice. And, there are so many other people but those are the first two whose books come to mind for me.

Katie: I love that. I am adding those to my reading list right now. And, I also want to mention actually your book, “Real American,” which I’ve ordered. I haven’t finished, yet. I just started but so far it’s incredible and beautiful. And, you didn’t mention it but I want to highly recommend that and all. I’ll put links to those in the show notes at And like you mentioned, you’re coming out with another book next year so definitely, we’ll make sure to mention that when it comes out as well. But like I said in the beginning, I so much appreciate the work that you’re doing. And, this is so vital for parents and especially right now. And, I’m honored you would spend the time being here today and sharing with us.

Julie: Katie, thank you so much. There is one last thing I would love to say. Could I just say the name of my next book because it is actually pre-orderable now? And I would love for people to know what it is and to help me give life to it by taking an interest in it.

Katie: Absolutely. And I’ll link to the preorder. And I would love to have you back on again, to discuss that close to launch if you’d be willing but, absolutely. Go ahead.

Julie: I would love to be back on. You are a great interviewer and you have an amazing podcast and community. It’s such an honor. My book is called, “Your Turn: How to Be an Adult.” And it’s for 18 to 34-year-olds struggling with adulting. And, most of the adulting books tell you how to iron your shirt and how to file your taxes, and change a tire. And, yes, adulting is part of that but that’s like saying adulting is like…that’s like saying high school is like how to find your locker you know?

Adulting is about wanting to adult. It’s about having to adult. It’s about picking yourself up when things don’t go well. So it’s about the terror of it, you know, being reliant on yourself, and the joy of being self-reliant. And like, this little place I’m renting might be humble and all the stuff might be secondhand but it’s mine and I’m in charge. And, that feels good, and I get to decide.” You know there’s just such a delicious feeling and agency and that’s fundamentally I think what this book is about. It’s about what I call the arch of adulting, agency, resilience and character. These are the three things that will carry us to a delightful, wonderful, successful future.

So that book, “Your Turn: How to Be an Adult,” is coming out April 6, 2021. Pre-orderable right now and I would love it if anyone’s got a young adult in their lives that they love, I would love for you to get it. If you are somebody who’s listening and you are a young parent. You’re like, “Hey, I could use some tips on adulting,” I think you might find this speaks to you as well.

Katie: Amazing, I’ll make sure that’s linked, as well as your TED Talk, and your books, and the article for the Atlantic you mentioned. Those will all be at for any of you who are listening while you exercise or drive. You can find all the notes there. Julie, I am so honored, like I said you are here. This has been one of my favorite interviews and I’m so grateful for your time.

Julie: Katie, thank you so much. Delightful being with you. Thank you for all you’re doing to help us all be better parents.

Katie: And, thank you as always for listening and for sharing your most valuable resource, your time with both us today. We’re so grateful that you did and I hope that you will join me again on the next episode of the Wellness Mama Podcast.

If you’re enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to leave a rating or review on iTunes for me? Doing this helps more people to find the podcast, which means even more moms and families could benefit from the information. I really appreciate your time, and thanks as always for listening.

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