The Case for Better Meat by Diana Rogers of Sacred Cow

Baby: Welcome to my mom’s podcast.

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Katie: Hello, and welcome to the “Valence Mama” podcast. I am Katie from and, well done with E at the end which is my new line of hair care, toothpaste and hand care personal care products.

And listen to this story, especially for women and mothers. I’m here with Diana Rogers, a real food licensed registered dietitian. And she runs her own exercise where she helps people with weight management, metabolic issues, bowel issues, and all sorts of other things get back to their health through diet and lifestyle.

He is the founder and author of Sustainable Dish and hosts the “Sustainable Dish” podcast. She is also a mother of two and an internationally recognized speaker on nutrition and sustainability, social justice, animal welfare, and food policy. He just released a book with a friend of mine, Rob Wolf, called “The Sacred Cow: A Case for Better Meat,” and it explores the important role of animals in our food and drink systems. She will soon release a documentary of the same name.

In this episode, we talk deeply about why we really need cows for our environment. Why is it thought that cows cause climate problems because there is no clear cut like methane? And we really think deeply about the importance of protein for health for many of us, especially animal protein, and that was a huge part of my own health that has changed over the last two years. And she sees it as one of the biggest factors in the process of health for women so we really talk a little bit deeper about some of the issues, even we get into some pretty scientific topics like MTOR. And when it comes to protein consumption, why don’t I worry about it at all? A really interesting event, I know you will be as charming as I was. So, without further ado, join Diana. Diana, welcome. Thank you for coming here today.

Diana: Thank you so much for keeping me. I’m really in the mood to talk to you.

Katie: I’m really excited too. I have known you for years and admire your work for a long time. I really can’t believe I haven’t got you yet. And I’m glad we had to talk. And I think for some background, I’d like to start with your story because it’s so incredible. I love hearing this and our listeners to hear how you came into this world and what you do.

Diana: Absolutely, it all started when I was diagnosed with celiac disease at the age of 26, which answered a lot of questions about why I was such a sick child, with so little weight and so little muscle tone. And going gluten-free has solved a lot of pain problems. For me, but not all kinds of metabolic things. So I went to the doctor, like, why do I need to eat every two hours, you know, like a big headache and basically without shaking? And I just kept testing him for diabetes because I was sure it was happening, but whenever he did, it was within the normal range. And after my second child was born, I decided to quit my corporate job. I was actually marketing whole foods after a career in food marketing.

And I started working on my farm. So I married a farmer and ran all the farm and order work. And we had a 500 member CSA and we were hosting Milk Raw. And it was just a group we didn’t know very well, but they were also members of the CSA and they just needed space for distribution. And that’s why we’re happy to have them, because they carry their own raw milk, but often also buy a lot of things. And so I keep getting requests for coconut oil and, you know, do you offer your own fat from your pigs? And I was like, what’s with all these people and her fat? Like, they are eating too much fat and it will not be considered bad for you and all of them. And then I started learning a little bit more.

I went to the Weston A Price conference and started eating more fat and I realized that this is a real turning point for me in helping my blood sugar to swing a little. So I really reached out to Sally Fallen at this conference in San Francisco, maybe in 2008. And I said, “What can I do? Like, I want to change my career and I want to be; I want to help people get involved in this diet. And that’s when he said to become a dietitian. And I was like, “Oh, my God, that’s a lot of work. And I have little kids and I can’t even imagine grade school. “And so I started looking around and I found the Nutrition Therapy Association, which at the time, just seemed a lot more digestible to me. It’s a great program, really good food, whole food. A good primer in education. He is very much based on Weston A. Price’s philosophy.

And it really answered a lot of questions for me because before I got into the program I was reading a book on raw juices and it all sounded good to me. And then I’ll read another book on it, you know, why you should drink cranberry tones and eat only grapes. And I like that too. Like, you know, there are a lot of these books; the people who write them are pretty convincing, they’re really good marketers. And when I became a nutritionist, I really got a better understanding of what humans are prepared to eat, what foods are ideal. And I opened a practice. Towards the end of the NTA program, one of our responsibilities was to read a book that contained a diet challenge and to carry out and report on that diet challenge.

And so it was with the book “The Paleo Solution” that just came out. So I read it and I ate there. And at the time it seemed completely; it was like I was already gluten-free, but not eating grains at that time seemed like the hardest thing in the world. And I was like, “What do I do without my lentils and all my carbs? And I don’t think it’s going to work. And so for the first two weeks I’m tired, I feel like I’m in a day. , Two, three am on benadral. And then about day 14, I just woke up and I was able to go from breakfast to lunch without breakfast, I also managed to delay lunch and almost panic attacks. I was completely unable to go.

And it was amazingly free for me. And so when I started my nutrition therapy practice, I started using the Paleo Diet with everyone who walked in the door and just watched these amazing results. Like, you know, people who had bad digestion problems, really bad sleep, just everyone was doing such a good job at the cup. But at the same time, I realized that a lot of people aren’t able to see me because, as a nutritionist, I really couldn’t prescribe diet. So if you have celiac disease, you have to go to a dietitian for a gluten-free diet, as it is technically considered a medical intervention, and therefore only a dietitian can do that. ۔ Also, only nutritionists can insure. And that was another thing that really mattered to me because I wanted to see a wider range of people and help a wider range of people, you know, more than just cash. ۔

And so I started the long process of becoming a dietitian at home with young children, part-time, and it took about seven years. And it was kind of like, I just kind of put my head down and decided that for the next seven years it would be my hobby, grade school. And so, you know, Biochem was what I did at night, and on weekends whenever I was running my practice and raising kids and was still on the farm. And when I became a dietitian, I started looking around and it really became clear to me that all the people who were talking about a sustainable diet and, you know, this global diet that is healthy and sustainable Yeah Al that sounds pretty crap to me, Looks like BT aint for me either. Meat, right? Like talking about vegetarian or vegan diet.

And I realized that there really was nobody who didn’t have a sustainability approach, a yellow diet or, you know, even a sustainability solution. There is also a Weston A Price diet. And so I thought it would be a really interesting place to explore. And I kept bothering Rob Wolf, who became my friend that we had to write this book, this book. And he kept saying that this was not the right time. No one is paying attention. And so when we go to conferences and talk about sustainability and nutrition, you know, the first few years were really just like three people in a room. But then, you know, as more and more people became interested in this topic and I started writing more about it on my blog and really focused on it in my podcast, “Sustainable Dish Started a blog called

It really kind of started; I started getting a little bit of the following and I would go to conferences, and the room would be full and there would be people standing behind and asking a lot of questions. And so, you know, I really do believe that the food that’s ideal for humans, that you know, is largely based on that, you know, all that we’ve eaten. Can be produced in a more sustainable way. And so my latest book and film project really explores it. We talk about the importance of animal products for human health and why animals can be important when raised animals are good for the environment.

And we dive into ethics because people always start, but we know that, without fully understanding the nutritional implications of telling you people, especially women, about whether to eat meat or not. Can’t have a good moral conversation. Kids, eating less meat around the world, and realizing that there is no sustainable vegan or vegetarian eating system, that you really have a strong close-loop, organic and sustainable living animals. Have to keep as part. Food system.

So it was a long monopoly there, but that’s where I’m coming from. And we have the book “Holy Cow” that just came out that Rob and I launched in July, and the movie “Sacred Cow”, which is a documentary that we shot before CoVID started. Thanks, so we were all just editing remotely during the coveted, and it’s done now. This fall we are going to release it on our website, Holy And so people can visit my website, sign up for the newsletter to find out when we’re doing this free screening. And then after this free week, it will be available to watch on all major platforms.

Katie: There are a lot of points I want to delve into. I want to start, one thing you just said really stuck with me, which means there is no vegan food system that is completely sustainable. And I think it’s a great springboard to look for all the environmental impact items related to our food and drink system in general. But of course, this seems like a very common misconception, and I know a lot of people choose plant-based foods because they think about for health reasons. But we also hear a lot about environmental causes when it comes to people making lawsuits about being plant-based. So can you pass us by because there’s a wagon system, a sustainable food system that doesn’t work?

Diana: Yes, of course, but when you look at naturally occurring ecosystems, you know, in the wild, humans are not as good as they used to be, they all have plants and animals as part of it. , Okay fine? There are insects, there are usually grazing animals, there are birds, you know, there are different types of different plants. And so when we look at our farming system, what we’ve done to trap it is monocrop agriculture. So when you fly across the country and you see all the squares and circles, it’s one crop, one acre and one acre and one crop of miles and miles. And that’s pretty destructive. Not only is the corn or soybean environment bad, but there is also the process of plowing the land and replacing it with large grasslands in the United States that turn grazing animals into farmland. He is doing what he has to do. First and foremost, the destruction of an ecosystem.

So all the different types of plants, the little critics that live underground and in the grass or eat in a forest, if the same thing is being taken down, all these animals are being displaced and / or killed when you That has to change. Arable land. And then, you know, in planting crops, you get tractors, you know, you scrape things. We have found pesticides that kill insects that are eating or poisoning birds. We know we have other chemicals entering our waterways, you know, that create dead zones in the Gulf of Mexico. And then there we are, you know, cutting them all down and turning it into ultra-processed food that’s not good for us either. So the whole system of modern agriculture has broken down on a large scale. And our solution is to really look at the Ag AG system to include as much life as possible.

So we, in the book, run people with that idea. At the beginning of the ecological section, it is a brain experiment called the Grass World, where we try to explain the importance of biodiversity. And so, if you imagine a planet that had a seasonal pattern like Earth but had no animals and only grass, if you didn’t come back a few years later, you know, no Grazing animals on this grass, the grass will die. اور اس کی وجہ یہ ہے کہ ان کے گھاس کے علاقوں میں چرنے والے جانوروں کو گھاسوں کو چبا رہا ہے ، اچھال رہا ہے ، آپ کو معلوم ہے ، زمین کو کھاد ڈالتے ہوئے ، نمی کو ادھر ادھر گھوماتے ہیں صحتمند گھاس کے میدان کے لئے یہ سب واقعتا، واقعی اہم ہے۔ لیکن اگر آپ کے پاس صرف زمین پر مویشی ہیں ، تو آپ جانتے ہیں ، وہ آسانی سے کچھ حص sectionsوں کو زیادہ سے زیادہ بنا سکتے ہیں ، دوسرے حصوں کو انڈرگریج کر سکتے ہیں۔

اور اس ل those ان جانوروں کو حرکت میں رکھنے کے ل you آپ کو شکاریوں کے اثر کی ضرورت ہے۔ اور اس طرح ہم کھیتوں پر برقی باڑ لگانے کے ساتھ ایسا کرنے کے قابل ہیں۔ اور میں صرف یہ محسوس کر رہا ہوں کہ میں ایک خرگوش کے سوراخ سے بالکل نیچے جا رہا ہوں۔ آپ نے مجھ سے صرف ویگن بمقابلہ ، جانتے ہیں ، جانوروں اور پائیداری کے بارے میں پوچھا ، لیکن یہ سب جڑے ہوئے ہیں۔ تو آپ کو صحت مند کھیت کے نظام میں جس چیز کی ضرورت ہے وہ زیادہ سے زیادہ زندگی کی ضرورت ہے ، ٹھیک ہے؟ کیونکہ اگر کوئی وائرس آئے اور بھیڑیوں کا صفایا کردے تو آپ مویشیوں کے زیادہ چرنے میں دوبارہ پریشانی کا سامنا کرنا پڑے گا۔ تو آپ کثیر قسم کے چرنے والے جانوروں کو چاہتے ہیں۔ آپ متعدد قسم کے شکاری چاہتے ہیں۔ آپ کو بہت سے کیڑے کی زندگی ، پرندوں کی زندگی چاہئے۔ اور اس طرح سے یہ سب ایک نو تخلیقی زراعت کے نظام میں تشکیل دیا جاسکتا ہے ، اور اس میں جانوروں کو بھی اس کا حصہ بننے کی ضرورت ہے۔

وہاں کوئی پائیدار فارم نہیں ہے جس میں جانور نہیں ہیں یا کم از کم جانوروں کے آدان ہیں ، ٹھیک ہے؟ جیسے ، بہت سارے شہری باغات اور نامیاتی فارم ہیں جن میں جانور نہیں ہیں۔ لیکن وہ جو کام کر رہے ہیں وہ کھاد لا رہے ہیں ، یا یہاں شمال مشرق میں ، ہم یہاں گلوسٹر میں سمندری غذا کی صنعت سے بہت سی مچھلیوں کے امیلشن کا استعمال کرتے ہیں۔ اور اسی طرح جانوروں کا نظام کا ایک حصہ ہے چاہے آپ انہیں کھائیں یا نہیں۔ اور میں سوچتا ہوں ، آپ جانتے ہو ، اگر آپ واقعی کم سے کم نقصان کی غذا تلاش کر رہے ہیں ، تو پھر آپ کے کھانے کے حص animalsے کے طور پر جانوروں کو چرانے سے درحقیقت صرف پودوں کی غذا کھانے سے کم نقصان ہوگا۔

کیٹی: یہ سمجھ میں آتا ہے۔ جب آپ کسی بھی قسم کے کھانے کو بڑھانے کے ماحولیاتی پہلو کے بارے میں بات کرتے ہو تو اس میں ہم آہنگی کی ضرورت ہوتی ہے۔ اور ظاہر ہے کہ ایک اور علاقہ جس میں گائیں ایک طرح کی مساوات میں لائی جاتی ہیں اور خراب ریپ ملتی ہیں میتھین کے موضوع پر ہے۔ اور ہم سنتے ہیں ، آپ جانتے ہو ، یہ دعوی ہے کہ اس سے آب و ہوا کے تمام مسائل میں اہم کردار ادا کیا گیا ہے اور بنیادی طور پر گائیں ہی مسئلہ ہیں اور گوشت کم کھانا ہی اس کا حل ہے۔ اور میں جانتا ہوں کہ آپ نے اس کے بارے میں لکھا ہے اور آپ نے اسے “مقدس گائے” میں خطاب کیا ہے ، لیکن کیا آپ ہمیں طرح طرح سے جائزہ لے کر چل سکتے ہیں کہ اس سے کہیں زیادہ ضرورت کیوں ہے؟

ڈیانا: ہاں ، ضرور اس کی کچھ وجوہات ہیں اور سب سے پہلی وجہ یہ ہے کہ امریکہ میں ہمارے پاس چرنے والے جانوروں کی تعداد کے مقابلے میں زیادہ گائے کا گوشت نہیں ہے جو ہمارے یہاں بائسن اور دوسرے جنگلی چرنے والے جانوروں سے چھٹکارا پانے سے پہلے ہی جانتے تھے۔ ، اس سے پہلے کہ ہم آکر امریکہ نوآبادیات بنیں اور اس طرح ہمارے پاس پہلے سے زیادہ میتھین تیار کرنے والے جانور نہیں ہیں۔ لیکن دوسری بات یہ ہے کہ بائیوجینک میتھین ، میتھین جو چرنے والے جانور سے پیدا ہوتا ہے ، دراصل ایک چکر کا حصہ ہے۔ تو یہ سب ری سائیکل ہوجاتا ہے۔ ایسا نہیں ہے کہ یہ صرف میتھین ہوا میں جاتا ہے اور وہاں رہتا ہے ، ہر چیز کو گرم کرتا ہے۔ میتھین تقریبا 10 سال تک رہتا ہے۔

جب ایک گائے میتھین کو بیلچ کرتی ہے ، جو بڑے پیمانے پر کھانے کو ہضم کرنے سے قدرتی عمل ہے تو ہم اسے غذائی اجزاء میں گھنے پروٹین اور چربی میں جکڑے ہوئے کھانے میں نہیں کھا سکتے ہیں ، جب یہ میتھین کو نکالتا ہے تو وہ میتھین فضا میں تقریبا 10 10 سال تک زندہ رہتا ہے ، لیکن اس کے بعد پانی کے انووں ، H2O ، جو بارش ، اور CO2 میں پانی کے چکر کا حصہ بن جاتا ہے ، جس میں پودوں کو دریافت کرنے کی ضرورت ہوتی ہے ، آپ کو معلوم ہوتا ہے ، روشنی سنتھیراسی سے گزرنا پڑتا ہے ، اور اس کاربن میں سے کچھ اصل میں CO2 سے ٹوٹ جاتا ہے۔ زمین میں الگ کیا جا سکتا ہے. دوسرے ، آپ جانتے ہو ، کاربن کے ٹکڑے دراصل صرف گائے میں واپس جاتے ہیں اور ، آپ جانتے ہیں ، پروٹین میں بدل جاتے ہیں۔

اور اسی طرح ، ایک بار پھر ، یہ سب کچھ ہے… یہ ایک سرکلر سسٹم ہے۔ جب کہ جیواشم ایندھن قدیم کاربن اور میتھین کو راستے سے ، نیچے کی طرف ، زمین کے بنیادی حصے میں گہری کھینچ رہے ہیں ، اور اسے فضا میں جاری کررہے ہیں ، لیکن واقعی اس کو جذب کرنے کے لئے کوئی اور جانچ اور توازن نہیں ہے۔ اور اس طرح یہ ایک متوازن مساوات ہے۔ اگر آپ کو ہائی اسکول کی ایک طرح کی کیمسٹری یاد آتی ہے تو ، آپ جو چاہتے ہیں وہ ایک متوازن مساوات ہے ، اور یہ واقعی جیواشم ایندھن ہے اور ، آپ جانتے ہو ، نقل و حمل راستہ ، راستہ ، مویشی پالنے سے بھی بدتر ہے جو انسانوں کو کھانا مہیا کررہا ہے۔

کیٹی: یہ سمجھ میں آتا ہے۔ اور مجھے پسند ہے کہ آپ نے بھی معدے کے پہلو کو واضح کیا کیونکہ یہ بہت ہی مضحکہ خیز ہے۔ میں گائے کے فارموں اور اس کی پریشانی کے بارے میں تمام مضامین دیکھتا ہوں ، اور اس سے مجھ پر دراڑ پڑ جاتی ہے۔ ٹھیک ہے. لہذا آپ نے نو تخلیقی زراعت کی اصطلاح کا ذکر کیا ہے ، اور میں اس پر تھوڑا سا گہری جانا پسند کروں گا کیونکہ میں نے اس کے بارے میں کچھ پڑھا ہے۔ میں اس تصور سے بہت متاثر ہوا ہوں۔ اور اس طرح ، ہم سے ایک قسم چلتے ہیں ، سب سے پہلے ، وہ کیا ہے ، اور زیادہ مفصل انداز میں ، اور یہ کہ ایک مثالی فوڈ سسٹم جو تخلیق نو زراعت کو استعمال کرتا ہے وہ کیسا نظر آتا ہے۔

ڈیانا: ضرور جب نامیاتی عمل شروع ہوا ، جیسے ، ’70 کی دہائی میں ، میرا اندازہ ہے ، اور پھر بعد میں پائیدار کاشتکاری کی تحریک چل رہی تھی۔ اب یہ تخلیق نو کی بات ہے ، لیکن واقعتا، ، یہ مرکز کے مرکز میں جب نامیاتی اور پائیدار کاشتکار کرنا چاہتے تھے تو یہ صرف اس بات کی بات ہے کہ ان شرائط کو بڑے کاروبار نے ہم آہنگ کیا۔ اور دراصل پنرجنج کرنے والا قدرے بہتر بھی ہو رہا ہے۔ میں نے بہت سارے لوگوں سے ملاقات کی ہے ، جیسے آپ درآمد کرتے ہو ، آپ جانتے ہو ، کاجو ہیں اور اسے دوبارہ تخلیق کار قرار دے رہے ہیں۔ اور میں پسند کرتا ہوں ، “واقعی؟” جیسے ، یہ کیسے ہے… آپ جانتے ہو ، آپ فلائٹ اور پلاسٹک اور اس سب کا حساب کس طرح دے رہے ہیں؟ تو نو تخلیق کار کے پیچھے خیال یہ ہے کہ یہ حقیقت میں زمین کو بہتر بنا رہا ہے۔ لہذا ، آپ صرف جدید کھیتی کو بیان کرنے کے بجائے ، تخلیق نو زراعت دراصل مٹی میں اضافہ کر رہی ہے ، زندگی میں اضافہ کر رہی ہے ، جنگلی جانوروں کے لئے رہائش گاہ مہیا کررہی ہے تاکہ ہر قسم کا ایک ساتھ رہ سکے اور ایسا کھانا مہیا کیا جا سکے جس میں غذائی اجزا بھی موجود ہوں۔ یہ بھی اس کا ایک بہت ہی اہم حصہ ہے۔

اور لہذا جو آپ پنرجیویت فارم پر دیکھ سکتے ہو وہ جانور ایسے ہوں گے جو اسٹیشنری نہیں ہوتے ہیں۔ تو یہ اس تولیدی تحریک کا ایک بہت بڑا حصہ ہے کہ جانوروں کے لئے مستقل حرکت پذیر رہنا واقعی اہم ہے کیونکہ فطرت میں ، کوئی بھی جانور محض بیٹھک نہیں ہوتا ہے۔ وہ نہیں ہیں ، آپ جانتے ہیں ، ان کے رہنے میں ، آپ جانتے ہیں ، 10 فٹ باڑ 10 فٹ مربع ، ٹھیک ہے؟ ان کے چرانے والے جانور مستقل طور پر ہجرت کر رہے ہیں ، اور یہ حقیقت میں زیادہ گرنے سے روکتا ہے ، جیسا کہ میں پہلے گھاس کی دنیا کی مثال کے ساتھ بیان کر رہا تھا۔ اور اس طرح آپ کو جانوروں کو حرکتی دیکھنا ہوگا ، آپ مویشیوں کو حرکت دیتے ہوئے دیکھ سکتے ہیں ، لیکن پھر مویشیوں کے ٹھیک بعد ، ایک کسان کچھ مرغیاں لا سکتا تھا ، اور مرغیوں کا کردار یہ ہوگا کہ کھاد میں سے بچنے والے کسی بھی پرجیویوں کو کھائیں۔ مویشی۔ لیکن یہ بھی مرغیاں زمین پر نوچ رہے ہیں اور pooping اور مٹی میں طرح طرح کے غذائی اجزا شامل کررہے ہیں۔

اور پھر ، آپ جانتے ہو ، فصل کی کٹائی کے بعد ، آپ اپنی فصل کاٹنے کے بعد در حقیقت جانوروں کو چر سکتے ہیں۔ تو موسم خزاں میں ، جیسے یہاں نیو انگلینڈ میں ، بھیڑیں آسکتی ہیں اور اپنے کھیت میں بچ جانے والے گوبھی کے باقی پتے کھا سکتی ہیں۔ اور اس طرح ، آپ جانتے ہو ، کچھ لوگ اس فصل کو ضائع کرنے یا فصلوں کی باقیات کو کہتے ہیں ، لیکن یہ بھیڑوں کے لئے واقعی اہم خوراک ہے۔ اور پھر جب وہ چر رہے ہیں ، وہ pooping اور مٹی میں زندگی دے رہے ہیں۔ اور اس طرح واقعتا re تولیدی فارم میں درحقیقت جانوروں اور پودوں کے اجزا ہوتے ہیں ، اور بہت کم تکلingنگ ہوتی ہے کیونکہ آج تک حقیقت میں کاربن کو جاری کرتی ہے۔ اور اس لئے آپ چاہیں تک کم یا نا چاہتے ہو ، جو کرنا ہمیشہ آسان نہیں ہوتا ہے ، خاص طور پر مارکیٹ کے باغات میں جہاں وہ بہت ساری سبزیاں اگاتے ہیں۔ لیکن ، آپ جانتے ہو ، کسی بھی چیز کے لئے ایک صحیح راستہ اور ایک غلط راستہ نہیں ہے۔ یہ ایک طرح کا ہے ، جیسے بہتر طریقوں کا ترازو۔ لیکن ، آپ جانتے ہو ، ایک بار پھر ، مجھے یقین ہے کہ انسانوں کو بھی ، جتنا ممکن ہو مقامی طور پر ، پودوں اور جانوروں کو کھانا چاہئے ، اور ، آپ جانتے ہو ، موسمی طور پر۔ لہذا یہ واقعی کھانے کی اس آبائی طرز کے ساتھ واقعی اچھی طرح سے یکجا ہوجاتا ہے۔

کیٹی: یہ سمجھ میں آتا ہے۔ اور مجھے پسند ہے کہ آپ نے صرف جانوروں کا ہی نہیں ، بلکہ ان کے پاس منتقل کرنے کے لئے گنجائش رکھنے کا نظریہ بھی پیش کیا۔ میرے خیال میں یہ ایک اہم کلید ہے کیونکہ میں اکثر اس بحث میں رہتا ہوں کہ کھانے کا بہترین طریقہ کیا ہے اور کیا ہم جانوروں کو کھائیں یا نہیں ، اس کو نظرانداز کردیا جاتا ہے ، میں ابھی تک کسی کو بھی فیڈلوٹ یا پنجری کے فوائد کے لgue بحث کرنے کے لئے نہیں سنتا ہوں۔ کاشتکاری جیسا کہ ہم در حقیقت سب سے زیادہ متفق ہیں کہ جانوروں کو اس سے کہیں زیادہ مختلف انداز میں اٹھایا جانا چاہئے۔ اور اس ل I میں محبت کرتا ہوں کہ آپ نے اس حصہ کو بڑھایا۔ میں بھی تجسس کا شکار ہوں کیوں کہ ایک اور اعتراض جو اکثر اٹھایا جاتا ہے وہ یہ ہے کہ ہمیں کھانے کے ان دیگر اقسام کی ضرورت ہے یا پودوں پر مبنی پوری دنیا کی آبادی کو پالنے کا ایک زیادہ پائیدار طریقہ ہے۔ لیکن جب بات یہ ہے کہ اس سے زیادہ پائیدار تخلیق نو زراعت ماڈل کی بات ہے تو کیا ہم واقعتا the دنیا کی آبادی کو کچھ اس طرح سے کھلاسکتے ہیں؟

ڈیانا: ہاں یہ مجھے ایک عام سوال ہے۔ اور اس طرح ہمارے پاس کتاب کا ایک پورا باب ہے جو اس کی نشاندہی کرتا ہے۔ بات یہ ہے کہ ہمارا موجودہ زراعت کا نظام تباہی کی طرف گامزن ہے اور یہ صرف پائیدار نظام نہیں ہے۔ لہذا اگر ہم اب سے 500 سال پہلے واپس آجائیں تو ، اس کے پاس کوئی راستہ نہیں ہے کہ ہم ابھی بھی اپنے طریقے سے فصلیں کٹ رہے ہوں گے۔ ہم تباہ کردیں گے… میرا مطلب ہے ، مڈویسٹ صحرا میں تبدیل ہونے والا ہے۔ ہم صرف… ہم صرف وہاں کی تمام مٹی کو ختم کرنا جاری رکھے ہوئے ہیں۔ اور یہ سب کو بیمار کررہا ہے ، ٹھیک ہے؟ یہ اس سارے الٹرا پروسیسرڈ فوڈ کی طرح ہے ، آپ جانتے ہو ، مکئی کا شربت ، جدید زراعت کے سارے نتائج اس بات کی گارنٹی ہیں کہ ویسے بھی کوئی آدمی باقی نہیں رہے گا۔ آپ کو معلوم ہے کہ اس سے زیادہ ہمیں علاقائی فوڈ سسٹم کی طرف لوٹانے کی ضرورت ہے جو پرورش بخش کھانا پیدا کر رہے ہیں۔

اور لہذا ہمیں فی الحال کیلوری کی پیداوار میں کوئی پریشانی نہیں ہے۔ ہم ٹن کیلوری تیار کرتے ہیں۔ در حقیقت ، ہم واقعی میں ، آپ جانتے ہو ، ہمیں ابھی سے ضرورت سے 30 30 سے ​​50 more زیادہ خوراک بناتے ہیں ، لیکن یہ غذائی اجزاء والا گھنا کھانا نہیں ہے۔ اور اسی طرح کیلوری کی پیداوار پر توجہ دینے کے بجائے ، ہمیں غذائی اجزاء کی پیداوار ، اور خاص طور پر پروٹین کی پیداوار اور صحت مند چربی پر توجہ دینے کی ضرورت ہے ، آپ جانتے ہو ، الٹرا پروسیسڈ تیل اور اس طرح کی چیزیں۔ میں نے ریاست ہائے متحدہ امریکہ کے لئے ریاضی سے گزرنا پڑا۔ ایسا لگتا ہے کہ ہمارے پاس گائے کے مویشیوں کے تمام جانوروں کو ختم کرنے کے لئے کافی زمین ہے ، جو ہم فی الحال ختم کر رہے ہیں اور فیڈ لاٹس ہیں۔

اور اس لئے صرف اس کا پشتارہ لگائیں اور اس پر تھوڑا سا واضح کریں تو ، تمام مویشی اپنے ماںوں کے ساتھ گھاس پر شروع ہوجاتے ہیں۔ اور اس طرح بچھڑا گائے کا عمل ہماری چراگاہ پر مبنی کاروائیاں ہیں ، یہاں تک کہ آپ جانتے ہو کہ گائے کا گوشت جسے آپ ایک عام سپر مارکیٹ میں خریدتے ہیں۔ اور پھر مویشی یا تو ہیں ، آپ جانتے ہو ، ایک بار جب وہ ایک خاص وزن پر پہنچ جاتے ہیں ، تو وہ یا تو فیڈلوٹ پر ختم ہوجاتے ہیں یا گھاس پر ختم ہوجاتے ہیں۔ جب آپ اس سرزمین پر نظر ڈالیں جو ہمارے پاس دستیاب ہے تو ، اس میں سے بہت سارے حصے کو استعمال میں لایا جاتا ہے یا چرنے کے لئے بالکل بھی استعمال نہیں ہوتا ہے۔ ابھی کچھ ایسی پالیسیاں موجود ہیں جو دراصل کاشتکاروں کو اپنی زمین کا کچھ حصہ چرانے کے لئے ادا نہیں کرتی ہیں تاکہ وہ اسے زوال میں رکھیں۔ ہمارے پاس بہت سستی شدہ زمین ہے جو صحیح طریقے سے انتظام نہیں کی جاتی ہے ، جہاں مویشی صرف طرح طرح کے ہوتے ہیں جیسے کہ زمین کے بڑے پیمانے پر ٹکڑوں کو ٹھیک طرح سے منتقل کیے بغیر چھڑک دیا جاتا ہے۔ اور جب آپ جانوروں کو اس طرح کے گھاس چرنے کے راستے میں منتقل کرتے ہیں جسے ہم کتاب میں واقعی اچھی طرح بیان کرتے ہیں اور فلم میں مثال دیتے ہیں تو ، آپ واقعی میں صحت مند جانور پیدا کررہے ہیں ، بلکہ اس سے چارے کی مقدار میں بھی اضافہ ہوتا ہے جس سے زمین پیدا ہوسکتی ہے۔

لہذا آپ واقعی میں جانوروں کی مقدار میں اضافہ کرنے جارہے ہیں جو پہلے اس جگہ پر اس زمین پر چرنے کے اہل ہیں۔ اور اس طرح اگر ہم ان تمام مکئیوں کو جو خاص طور پر مویشیوں کے چارے کے ل grown اُگائے ہوئے ہیں اور اسے چراگاہ میں تبدیل کرنا ہے ، اور اس سے زیادہ استعمال شدہ زمین کا استعمال کریں اور کسانوں کو چرنے کے ل paying ادائیگی کرنے والے سی آر پی پروگرام سے نجات حاصل کریں ، اگر ہم ان تمام چیزوں کو نسل نو میں تبدیل کرتے ہیں زراعت ، ہمارے پاس گھاس کے تمام مال مویشیوں کو ختم کرنے کے لئے کافی زمین ہوگی۔

اب ، اگر ہم دنیا بھر کو دیکھیں تو ، میں کھانے کی خودمختاری کے اس تصور میں ایک بہت بڑا ماننے والا ہوں۔ لہذا ، آپ جانتے ہو ، دوسرے لوگوں سے یہ حکم نہیں دینا کہ وہ کس طرح کھانا کھائے ، انہیں یہ بتاتے ہوئے کہ وہ کم گوشت کھائیں ، ایسی چیزیں۔ اور صرف مویشیوں کو استعمال کرنا ضروری نہیں ہے۔ کچھ علاقوں میں زیادہ بکرے یا اونٹ رکھنے کی سمجھ میں آسکتی ہے۔ میں پیرو میں بہت سارے لوگوں کو جانتا ہوں کہ ، آپ جانتے ہو ، وہاں چرنا مشکل ہے اور وہاں بہت زیادہ ریفریجریشن نہیں ہے ، لہذا گیانیا کے خنزیر ان کا پروٹین کا بنیادی ماخذ ہے۔ اور اس لئے میں سمجھتا ہوں کہ اسے سیاق و سباق سے متعلق مخصوص ہونے کی ضرورت ہے۔ یہ ثقافتی لحاظ سے مناسب ہونے کی ضرورت ہے ، جو وہاں موجود لوگوں کے روایتی کھانے کے طریقوں کا احترام کرتے ہیں۔ دنیا میں آپ کہاں ہیں اس پر منحصر ہے کہ استحکام بہت مختلف نظر آتا ہے۔

کیٹی: یہ ایک اہم نکتہ ہے۔ اور مجھے پسند ہے کہ آپ نے غذائیت کی کثافت بمقابلہ کیلوری کا نظریہ بھی پیش کیا۔ اور میرے خیال میں یہ ایک ایسا نکتہ ہے جس پر بات نہیں کی جاتی ہے جب یہ بات کرنے کی بات آتی ہے کہ زیادہ سے زیادہ انسانی غذا کیا ہے ، جو میرے خیال میں ، ہم میں سے ہر ایک کے لئے بھی بہت ذاتی نوعیت کا ہے ، لیکن کچھ مشترکات ہیں۔ اور میں سوچتا ہوں کہ اس پوڈ کاسٹ کے بہت سارے سننے والے یقینا اس بات پر متفق ہوں گے کہ پروسیسرڈ فوڈز جیسی چیزیں ، جن میں کیلوری زیادہ ہوتی ہے ، لیکن اصل غذائیت سے کم ہوتی ہے ، اس کا جواب نہیں ہے۔ میں سمجھتا ہوں کہ ہم میں سے بہت سارے افراد اس بات پر متفق ہوں گے ، لیکن میرے لئے ، مثال کے طور پر ، ذاتی طور پر ، پچھلے دو سالوں میں ، میں نے 80 پاؤنڈ سے زیادہ کا نقصان اٹھایا ہے اور میں نے اپنے آپ کو معاف کیا ہے۔ صحت اور اس کا ایک حصہ ، میرے نزدیک ، بہت زیادہ پروٹین کھا رہا تھا۔

لہذا میں پروٹین کی سخت کمی کررہا تھا ، اور میں ایک منٹ میں پروٹین کی ضروریات کے بارے میں بات کرنا چاہتا تھا ، لیکن یہی وجہ تھی کہ میں واقعتا foods کھانے کی مختلف غذائی کثافت میں دلچسپی لینا چاہتا ہوں اور اس کا تعلق کس طرح کیلوری سے ہے۔ جب میں نے یہ کوشش کرنا شروع کی کہ فی کھانے میں ایک خاص مقدار میں پروٹین کھاوں ، اور مجھے احساس ہوا کہ کھانے کے ل، ، مثال کے طور پر ، سارڈینز یا چکن یا گائے کا گوشت ، اور 30 ​​سے ​​40 گرام پروٹین لینے کے لئے میں ہر کھانے کی کوشش کر رہا تھا ، میں آپ کو 300 سے 400 کیلوری کے ساتھ یہ کام کرسکتا تھا ، اور مجھے یہ ساری غذائیت کی کثافت اور بی وٹامنز مل رہی تھی اور اس سے پوری فائدہ مند چیزیں مل رہی ہیں۔ جب کہ ، مثال کے طور پر ، اگر میں نے دال کے ساتھ ایسا کرنے کی کوشش کی تو ، مجھے… کئی دال کی دال کھانی پڑے گی۔ جبکہ 600 سے زیادہ کیلوری ، مجھے عام طور پر کم غذائیت اور بہت زیادہ کاربوہائیڈریٹ اور کیلوری ملیں گی۔

کوئنوئا جیسی چیزوں کے ساتھ بھی ، جو ہوتا ، میرے خیال میں ، اگر مجھے یاد ہے ، کوئنوہ میں 1،000 سے زیادہ کیلوری ، جو ایک ہی مقدار میں پروٹین حاصل کرنے کے لئے 5 کپ کی طرح ہے۔ So that’s an argument that I also often hear is, you know, you can get all of these things that you need from plants, which is technically true. And you can, I’m sure, speak to this better than I can, but in many cases you have to eat a whole lot of plants to get the same macros.

Diana: Exactly. And, you know, you just gave away my big clinical secret, which is just 30 to 40 grams of protein per meal. That’s if I were to do nothing else to anyone’s diet and just get them to do that and get it from animal sources, you’re so satiated. And so, you know, cravings come from feeling hungry, and protein is the most satiating of the macronutrients. A lot of people think it’s fat, but it’s actually protein. But also nutrient deficiencies can drive cravings, too. And so if you’re getting the nutrients you need from beef and chicken and fish and other sardines are amazing, then you’re much less likely to crave other foods. And so, yeah, just protein, protein, protein is the ticket. And it’s really what we hammer in the book and the whole idea of nutrient density.

So if you were to take emotion completely out of it and just look at straight science, nutrient density, the solution for how to get the maximum amount of nutrients for the least amount of calories, because it is, at the end of the day, about calories. I know a lot of people don’t wanna admit that, but what I like to do instead of having people counting calories, which can lead to hunger and, you know, it’s not fun, right? It’s not fun to track your food. What I like to do is, you know, if they’re getting, for women, at least 100 grams of protein, but sometimes more than that, often more than that, I eat more than that, if you’re focusing on animal source protein, and then just throwing a nutrient dense plant foods, like broccoli and asparagus and spinach, you’re gonna get the most ideal diet.

And to your analogy with the quinoa, we have that, we have some graphics on that I share on Instagram and also in the book, where we talk about, you know, you can get 30 grams of protein from about 200 calories worth of steak or 140 calories worth of cod, but you would need over 700 calories worth of beans and rice in order to get the same amount of protein, and plus you’re eating all those extra carbs and you’re not even absorbing the protein in the same way. So animal-sourced protein is much more bioavailable than plant-based protein. It has the right spectrum of amino acids because it’s actually not protein that we need. It’s amino acids that we need. And so animal source protein has that right balance for us.

As far as minerals go, vitamins and minerals, that’s the other thing is, you know, people think, “Well, I get my iron because I eat spinach,” but you have to eat cups and cups and cups of spinach. And that’s why I’m really excited to be on your show, because it’s important for moms to hear this. You know, kids are squirmy, they’re less likely to eat cups and cups and cups of spinach, when most kids really love bacon and some steak and, you know, it can be hard to get the right amount of nutrients into a kid. But if you’re giving them enough meat, that’s what they need to grow. We know that the only randomized controlled trial that’s ever been done on, you know, meat versus less meat with children has shown that the kids who get more meat actually perform better academically, behaviorally, and mentally. And so I’m very actually against a lot of these programs that are trying to remove meat from schools because there’s just no evidence that that is beneficial in any way.

Katie: Yeah. And it seems like we’re seeing pushback on that. Certainly a lot of people listening homeschool or do alternative school methods. And that is one, I would say, positive outcome of everything over the past year, is there’s a lot more acceptance of virtual and alternative school options right now. So a lot of families are exploring that and a beautiful byproduct of that is we get to then create a good food culture for our kids as well in every meal of their day. But I, to echo what you said, have noticed a drastic difference in that with my kids, because when I started increasing my protein, of course, by just kind of roll over effect, our whole family started eating more protein since I do a lot of the cooking. And especially when it comes to protein in the morning, I see a drastic difference with my kids in their attention span, in their focus for the day, and just how much energy they have when they get enough protein, especially at breakfast and lunch, even more so than dinner, I would say, which kind of makes sense when you think about circadian rhythm.

And we typically, if we’re gonna do carbs, it’s more at dinner, things like sweet potatoes or fruit for dessert or things like that. And they tend to sleep great by doing that, but I’ve noticed a big difference. And my kids were already eating really clean and what would be considered pretty much paleo at our house all the time. But the increase in protein has been really beneficial for them as well. And we’ve seen that pay off in sports and school. So it makes sense for them. Do you remember off hand what that study is so I can find it?

Diana: I can send it to you. Yeah, we have it in the book listed and it was not too long ago. Yeah, I’ll send it to you.

Katie: Awesome. Then I’ll make sure to put a link in the show notes, as well as to the graphics you mentioned and the book, which I think everyone should read, because it really goes deeper than we can go in an hour on all of these different points. But I also love that protein… I know you talk about this on your blog, which, “Sustainable Dish,” I’ll link to as well. But I think this is not talked about enough and I recently just mentioned it on Instagram that I eat that much protein and that’s part of how I lost weight and had, like, literally hundreds of responses from people going, “How the heck do you actually eat that much protein?”

Diana: It’s hard.

Katie: And you have to be conscious of it. But I have found, I literally don’t have to count any other macro at all, as long as my…I hit that basic protein requirement at every meal, and then I eat essentially whatever I want after that. Like, if I’m still actually hungry, I’ll eat whatever I want. I eat a lot of olive oil and like the greens you mentioned, things like that, but I always make sure I hit the protein targets first. And I’m almost always so satisfied from just that, that I get a protein and a little bit of vegetables, and I’m good. But you’re right. Like, that’s a great point. I think we need to bring up, is you’re not gonna be able to accidentally eat this much protein.

Diana: No, no. And so what I like to do, actually, I don’t know if you did this in the beginning, but when I’m working with patients, and literally this is, like…this is the intro to every single woman that’s walking into my office because I do one-on-one counseling, you know, virtually and in person. And so I teach them how to use Cronometer. Do you know that tracking website?

Katie: No. Well, explain it to me.

Diana: Okay. So Cronometer, C-R-O-N-O-M-E-T-E-R. And whenever you type it out, auto-correct is gonna make it C-H, but it’s just C-R. It’s my favorite tracking app because it…you can track your macros. And it has the most accurate data for the USDA data. So you can enter, you know, five ounces of chicken and see exactly how many grams of protein that is. So I’ll have people track just for the protein, just for like a week in the beginning so that they can see how much meat they need to be eating in order to hit 100 grams protein a day, which, I mean, most women come into my office saying, “Well, I eat an egg for breakfast and I’ll have a little chicken on my salad for lunch, and then I’ll have a little piece of fish for dinner.” And I mean, honestly, that’s maybe what I just described there, 25 grams. I mean, it’s just way under, even the USDA say, like, RDA for protein, which is really, really low. That’s actually the minimum you need to be eating to avoid, like, disaster. And it’s certainly not the optimal level.

But anyway, so entering all of that in Cronometer, where you can look at the grams of protein that you’re actually taking in for a week to see how much protein you’re eating, but it also shows your micronutrients, which is really cool. So it’ll show how much iron you’re getting, how much zinc. And I actually did a nutrient density challenge not too long ago where I tried to get all my micronutrients every day. So all my B12, all my zinc, all my copper, all my selenium, all through food. I don’t know how somebody would be able to do that on a plant-based diet because…well, you just can’t through real food because it’s just impossible for the B12. But also a lot of the other things too, to try to get that, and then also stay, you know, in reasonable portion sizes, there is no way. But I learned, you know, how hard it can be to get iron, for example. If you’re not eating liver, then you’re even…however much steak you can get down, you’re still probably not getting the right amount of iron.

And zinc is another hard one. I mean, oysters are off the charts for nutrient density. And so it’s really fun. And I like that it’s also, instead of depriving yourself, you’re actually trying to reach nourishment goals, right? Like, “Ooh, how can I get copper?” And you might look up, you know, what plants have copper in it, or what meats have copper and then, you know, go seek those out. So it was really fun for me, and that’s what we talk about in the book. We actually have a 30-day nutrient density challenge that we call eat like a nutrivore. And I think a lot of my work in the future is gonna be focused around this.

Katie: I really appreciate the link to that tracker. I’ll make sure that’s linked in the show notes as well. And I think you’re right, that paradigm shift of trying to eat enough nutrients versus deprive ourselves of calories makes a huge difference. And it also was part of my internal mindset shift of not trying to kind of punish myself to lose weight, but accept and love myself and nourish my body from that place and how that drastically changed my physical body as well. But it all started on the internal side. And, okay, so you mentioned protein requirements and you made…that’s such a great point. Most of us probably aren’t even hitting the RDA minimum, which, like you said, that’s just to avoid disease, but do we have any good data on what optimal goals or protein targets actually should be for men and women? You mentioned over 100 grams per day. How do we figure out what’s optimal?

Diana: So, yeah, I like to look at it as 20% of your…you know, a minimum of your caloric intake should be coming from protein. And so that’s actually, you know, because meat is so low in calories, it’s actually…that’s quite a lot of meat. And so, you know, 20% to 35% is the acceptable…accepted macronutrient distribution range, AMDR, which is another set of data from the government, where they try to kind of give you these goals. But the RDA for protein was really set on these really outdated and inaccurate studies called nitrogen balance studies, where they measured nitrogen in, and then they looked at nitrogen out, like, through your urine. And whenever you hit zero for nitrogen out, they were like, “Okay, you’ve gotten enough protein.” And maybe, but that wasn’t taking into consideration all the other benefits, especially, of animal protein.

So the nutrient density, the satiating qualities of protein, and there have been a lot of studies that have looked at the benefits of really high protein diets in athletes, in anyone over 40, in anyone with an autoimmune disease, or recovering from an illness, especially burns, believe it or not. That’s the highest protein requirement, like, in a hospital, is someone who has had a lot of burns because your body is made of protein. And so you have to be ingesting a ton of it in order to build back, you know, heal from anything. Anyone who’s growing needs more protein. So you’re pretty much…you know, it’s just about every single person out there can be benefiting from more protein. And there isn’t, like, a hard line as far as, you know, what dieticians are supposed to tell people for optimal amount.

I mean, a lot of them are using the RDA. But then what they’re doing is they’re taking this RDA, which is 0.8 grams per kilogram of body weight, and they’re translating that into what women and what men should eat. But they’re basing that on a woman of 125 pounds because that’s ideal body weight for a woman, standard woman, and 154 pounds for men. That’s the standard for men. But the problem is the average American woman is over 160 pounds and the average American man is over 190. And so when you look at protein requirements, even 0.8 grams per kilogram, you got something way higher than the numbers that are circulated around there. So I think right now, most people assume that women are supposed to get 45 grams and men are supposed to get 54, but really, if you calculate out the RDA for even average weights, according to the CDC, you’re looking at double what we should be getting, you know, and taking into account that 20 gram…even 20% of the average macronutrient ratio.

And so what Robb and I recommend in the book is really, you know, anywhere from one gram of protein per pound of body weight, and that’s not gram of fish, that’s gram of protein. So that’s why it’s nice to go into Cronometer and see like how many grams of protein is in a three-ounce piece of fish, for example. And so I like to start women at a minimum of 100 grams of protein, but it really can go up from there. I mean, I’ve eaten as high as 145 grams of protein, and I felt amazing. And, again, it’s definitely a huge challenge to get in that much. It’s really hard to even eat like 30% protein. But it’s a good challenge and you feel amazing when you do it. I mean, mental clarity, like, it’s just incredible.

Katie: Yeah. I can definitely attest to that as well. And that’s kind of how I settled on trying that myself was looking at what are the things that, for instance, bodybuilders would do when they went to cut weight, which, I think, is another helpful reframe for women. It’s not about losing weight because none of us wanna actually lose anything. Psychologically we’re wired against that, but when they cut weight and they are increasing their protein, but they might reduce calories. And then a lot of these diets, when you remove processed food, whether it’s the paleo diet or keto, you’re also typically increasing protein and reducing carbohydrates and calories from processed food.

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I also thought it was fascinating to learn about, I think, they call it the thermic effect of food, and that protein is the most so. And I noticed that, I’m curious if you do as well. When I first started spiking protein and then even now, if I eat more protein than normal, I will notice my body temperature rise. And I think this might have actually been beneficial to me in getting my body temperature to return to normal after having Hashimoto’s for so many years.

Diana: Yeah, definitely. I could see that. And I haven’t thought about it that way, but especially for someone with Hashimoto’s, that makes total sense to me and why you, in particular, would feel amazing eating more protein, right? I, you know, it takes a lot of calories to break down protein and that’s not a bad thing. That’s a really good thing. You want your body to be working a little bit, but also being able to fully extract all the nutrients they can from that food, and that’s better with animal source foods. And anyway, so there’s… You know, I just have a…it’s really difficult for me when I see these people talking about how, you know, we’re eating too much meat, like, really? What is too much meat? What does that even mean, too much meat?

You know, so I looked at how much meat we’re eating in America. And since 1970, our red meat consumption actually has gone way down. We’re eating a lot more chicken, but that’s thanks to hormones and artificial vitamins and cheap oil that allows for cheap feed for chicken. Our average intake of beef per person per day in the U.S. is only two ounces. And so I, you know, as a clinician, I have a real problem with people saying, “Well, we have to eat less meat.” Meat is a nutrient dense food. I think people should be buying the best meat they can afford, but even if your only choices are…you know, you don’t have access, right, to grass-fed beef, and your choices are beef, pork or chicken just in the grocery store, I still would recommend moms buy the beef.

It’s more nutrient dense than chicken. And for a variety of environmental and ethical reasons, one cow can produce 500 pounds of meat. How many chickens would you have to kill for that? Most cattle, again, are on grass. All cattle are on grass for most of their lives. And even when they’re out of feed lot, which is, I’m not endorsing feedlot beef, but I’m just saying compared to industrially-raised chicken or pork, beef is the more humane choice. It’s the more nutrient dense choice. And environmentally, I actually think that even typical cattle are better than typical chicken or pork.

Katie: So to get a little sciencey for a second and feel free to not answer the question if it gets too sciencey, but another thing that I hear, at least in the more detailed, like, debates about protein consumption in general is related to mTOR, which, I believe, stands for mammalian target of rapamycin or the mechanistic target of rapamycin. But there are sources that claim that too much protein can basically increase this in a bad way, and so that we should not eat too much protein because of mTOR. And I I’ve seen things that kind of debunk this, but I’m curious, your take on this.

Diana: Yeah. So I mean, mTOR is the villain of the day. But you know, there’s other…I’m sure next month it’ll be a different one. And so we lightly address this in the book, but basically there are so many studies looking at intake of protein and the longevity and quality of life, right? So there’s some people that say, “Well, if you eat less calories or less protein, you’re gonna live longer.” But if you don’t have the right amount of protein, you’re also more likely to fall, and sarcopenia, which is age-related muscle loss, is a legit real thing that is the most common problem that older people are facing. Starting at age 40, you just start losing muscle. And it’s really hard to get that back again. And so I’m much more focused on the holistic idea that we need, you know, high quality of life and not getting so hung up on these individual, you know, singled out mechanisms that, you know, might do X or Y.

Eat a good high protein diet, have some muscle, feel great. And I don’t think that, you know, again, there’s gonna be… You know, I’m trying to think of the other one that was called out, but then it turned out that fish actually have more of it. Oh, there was another molecule. I can’t remember it now, but anyway, it was proven that actually it was a good thing. So, again, I just don’t get too hung up on that kind of stuff.

Katie: I agree. And I think when we step beyond the kind of buzz feed headlines on these studies and actually look into the data, I think they actually make a case for more protein. And especially if you’re worried about the longevity side, what I do is mitigate that with some different forms of intermittent fasting, and then also occasional longer fast, because fasting activates the AMPK signaling pathway, which inhibits mTOR, so you can balance it. And also, you know, with fasting, you’re eating less calories typically because you’re eating in a smaller window. And as long as you’re focused on the protein during that window, I find that that seems to balance, and I track all of my blood levels really carefully. But I just think there’s other ways to address that beyond just that we should be reducing protein. And I think the data actually speaks to, we should be limiting carbohydrates because certainly there’s an insulin impact on mTOR as well.

And when you look at the data, sugar is actually more likely to increase those negative components of mTOR activity. But yeah, no, I appreciate you taking that pretty sciencey question and fielding it. I feel like our time has flown by and I love that we started talking about protein, that wasn’t even actually on my list to bring up with you, but I think it all does go together. And I think you can’t separate the environmental and sustainability aspects of this from the personal health aspects. And it’s not either-or. I think, actually, when we look at the data like you guys have done in “Sacred Cow,” it’s very much both-and, that we can benefit people and the planet, if we are conscious about this. And I love that you make such a strong case, you and Robb, for better meat.

And that is the key because I think all of these debates and discussions about plant-based versus meat-based, they don’t take into account the nuances of that. And then when we’re talking about grass-fed, pasture-raised cows, we’re almost talking about an entirely different thing than feedlot cows. You can’t even put them in the same category for the environment or for people. And I love that you guys did such a wonderful job of detailing all of that in “Sacred Cow.” Talk a little bit about the movie and when that’s gonna come out and how people can watch it.

Diana: Yeah. So we are going to be doing a special one-week release this fall. We’re waiting on a couple of moving pieces in order to announce the date. So the best advice I would be giving folks would be just to go to and sign up for our newsletter because we’re gonna be announcing it, or following me on Instagram, which is, I’m @sustainabledish on Instagram. The film is a result of, you know, really I was halfway through writing the book when another vegan film came out and they’re really powerful. They’re showing them in schools as if it’s actual science and there was really nothing out there to counter it. And I thought, “Well, the book is gonna be good, but how many young people are gonna pick up this sciencey book and read all about it, right?” But film is really how they’re digesting their information.

And so I put the book on hold temporarily and dove into making this film because I wanted to bring the farms to people. I wanted to show people what regenerative agriculture actually looks like, meet some butchers and, you know, other food producers that are really super passionate about it. It was really fun to go all over. I went to Mexico, I went to England, Belgium, shooting with experts and farmers and researchers. And it is humbling to make a film. It is really a lot of work. And it’s…really happy it’s over so I can move on with other things in my life. But let’s see, Nick Offerman is the narrator of the film, and it turns out he’s a massive supporter of regenerative agriculture.

He’s actually really good friends. This is how I found out about him being into regenerative ag, was through the sheep farmer that we have in the film. Right after we left England, Nick was gonna go stay with him for about a month. And so Nick is on board and he’s been helping us with the marketing. And I mean, it’s got all our favorite paleo type ancestral experts in it, like, you know, Chris Kresser, Robb Wolf, Mark Hyman. And so we make a really strong case that meat is an important food for humans, animal products in general, that policies that restrict it are actually unethical.

And then we also talk about the positive role that animals play in our food system from an ecological perspective too. And so folks will learn a little bit of science and hear personal stories, like, from Lierre Keith about her experience with veganism. We’re not saying that veganism is wrong. We’re just saying that, you know, it might be not considering all of the other aspects that we’re bringing to attention here. So I’m just hoping to have a little bit more dialogue, a little less polarization. It’s not animals or plants. It’s the right combination of both of them grown in the right way. So it’s not the cow, it’s the how is, is one of the little taglines that we like to use for it.

Katie: I love it. Again, I’ll make sure all of those are linked at For any of you guys listening, I definitely recommend checking out the movie when it comes out. I’ll make sure to promote it on Instagram so you guys can find it and also reading the book. I really enjoyed it. And my 13-year-old is currently reading it, and he’s really fascinated and interested in the sustainability aspects of regenerative agriculture. So he’s loving it from that perspective.

Diana: A 13-year-old, I’m so impressed.

Katie: Yeah, he’s very much into it. We have thousands of super worms in his closet that he’s using to try to break down polystyrene and he’s very big on solving some of these environmental problems. And we’re big on, in school, letting them kind of pursue their own interests. So the environmental one is big with us right now. But I’ll make sure all those links are at, definitely would encourage you guys to go find them and continue learning from Diana, from Robb, from their work. And I know we talked about it a lot, but also would encourage you to experiment with your own protein intake because that was a big change for me that made a big difference in my health. A couple of questions, Diana, I love to ask toward the end of interviews. The first being, if there’s a book who are a number of books that have really changed your life, and if so, what they are and why.

Diana: I often will cite the book “Ishmael” by Daniel Quinn. Are you familiar with that one?

Katie: I’m not.

Diana: Okay. It’s just a great story. Anyway, I won’t go into why or what it’s all about, I guess, but it really just articulated in the most beautiful, most poetic way a lot of things that I’ve thought about. It’s just, if I were to make another movie again, I would make that book into a movie. So that’s definitely…there’s a trilogy, “Ishmael,” “The Story of B,” and “My Ishmael.” If anyone’s looking for some great reading that’s really moving, I highly recommend it.

Katie: I love it. That’s a new recommendation. I’ll make sure that’s linked in the show notes as well. And lastly, any parting advice you want to leave with the listeners today?

Diana: More protein, more protein, better protein. I actually have a whole blog post about that with lots of links to studies that show, you know, the benefits of more protein. I have a list of how to get more protein. In the book, we list how to get 30 grams of protein, actually, like, all the animal source foods that you would eat. I’m just really excited to connect with you on the protein thing because I’m such a protein geek and a nutrient geek. And I really think that that’s the ticket, and I think women in particular are protein-phobic, meat-phobic and, you know, it’s really throughout history women have been the ones denied meat, right? We were the last ones to get it even after the kids. And so I think women, you know, it’s sort of our right to take it back and own it and give our bodies what we need.

Katie: I love it. I just found that post, that will be linked to the show notes as well. You guys go find it, check it out. It’s fascinating. Diana, I’m so glad we finally got to connect and record. This has been so enlightening. I’m a really big fan of the work that you guys do, and I appreciate your time today.

Diana: Thank you so much for having me. It’s great.

Katie: And thank you, as always, for listening, for sharing your most valuable resource, your time, with both of us today, we’re very grateful that you did, and I hope that you will join me again on the next episode of the “Wellness Mama” podcast.

If you’re enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to leave a rating or review on iTunes for me? Doing this helps more people to find the podcast, which means even more moms and families could benefit from the information. I really appreciate your time, and thanks as always for listening.

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